[C] Rawwk, The Beatdown

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TheDeathstalker
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[C] Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by TheDeathstalker » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:23 am

Rawwk
The Beatdown
Strength; Hallowed Order.

Story.

Innate Skill:
Pinball Wizard
  • Passive
    Whenever Rawwk deals physical damage to an enemy, it is knocked back a distance equal to X% of the damage taken. Whenever a unit is knocked back, he adds X seconds of Blind and Maim to himself.
Level 1 Skill:
Innertia
  • Active No Target
    For the next 6 seconds, Rawwk gains X additional movespeed whenever he suffers from a condition. At the end of this, he deals physical damage equal to Y*(the total distance traveled while under Innertia) to nearby enemies.
Level 1 Skill:
300 Pound Punch
  • Melee Range Strike
    Deals X damage to target unit, and 1 second later ruins nearby foes for Y seconds and teleports Rawwk to the struck unit.
Level 1 Skill:
Rawwk and a Hard Place
  • Passive Summoning
    Whenever a unit dies while being knocked back, a large rock is summoned where they stop. The rock is immobile and has no attack, but if an enemy collides with the rock, it shatters dealing X Physical Damage in a small AoE and crippling for Y seconds. Can knockback.
Level 6 Ultimate:
Ain't No Rest
  • Toggled Passive
    Toggle 1: Whenever Rawwk is suffering from Blind, it is converted into an equal duration of Maim and all Physical damage dealt is increased by X.
    Toggle 2: Whenever Rawwk is suffering from Maim, it is converted into an equal duration of Blind and the speed of all Rawwk's attacks is increased by Y%.
Comments:
1) Ok, so, I'll be the first to admit that most of these names suck outright, so if you've got a halfway decent suggestion for something better, feel free.
2) For the ultimate, I wanted to be clear, but the intent is that if he were to be applied both maim and blind at once, it would count as two conditions being applied, and then they would be converted. This way the synergy with the 1st skill is not killed...
Last edited by TheDeathstalker on Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by TheDeathstalker » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:15 am

Remade, for Great Justice.
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

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Oxygen
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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by Oxygen » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:32 am

TheDeathstalker wrote: Rawwk and a Hard Place
  • Passive
    Whenever Rawwk deals physical damage to an enemy, it is knocked back a distance equal to X% of the damage taken. Whenever a unit is knocked back, he adds 1 second of Blind and Maim to himself.
Knockbacks? 1 second maim and blind are nothing; most heroes attack slower than this, (shhh janïse) so at worst, it won't even hinder him. At least, not the blind. Not necessary for how the hero works = not valid to be an innate!

TheDeathstalker wrote:Innertia
  • Active No Target
    For the next 6 seconds, Rawwk gains X additional movespeed whenever he suffers from a condition. At the end of this, he deals physical damage equal to Y*(the total distance traveled while under Innertia) to nearby enemies.
Kassar has something somewhat similar; the applications are different, but the end result and function are the same. Speed and damage.

TheDeathstalker wrote:300 Pound Punch
  • Target Unit
    Deals X damage to target unit, and 1 second later ruins nearby foes for Y seconds and teleports Rawwk to the struck unit.
Sounds like Tristan very much. Why is there even a delay?

Ability name ©copyrighted btw so you owe me 999,999$.

TheDeathstalker wrote:Bash in Minds
  • Summon Tethering Ward
    Creates a ward at target point which links to the nearest conditioned enemy within some AoE. If the target either loses it's conditions, or another conditioned enemy gets closer to the ward, it deals X magickal damage and cripples the unit for Y seconds, and links to the nearest conditioned enemy and repeats.
I really don't see how a ward fits this hero, honestly. In addition, that's like, Stille's trademark!

TheDeathstalker wrote:Ain't No Rest
  • Toggled Passive
    Toggle 1: Rawwk is immune to Blind and increases all Physical damage dealt by X.
    Toggle 2: Rawwk is immune to Maim and increases the speed of all attacks by Y%.
Well, that one kills any synergy you had with the first skill. Through making yourself immune to conditions, you kill the self appliance-to-speed gained through innertia.

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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by 2-P » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:55 pm

Your old one was the channeling guy right? I kinda liked him...
Kassar has something somewhat similar; the applications are different, but the end result and function are the same. Speed and damage.
Oh and Rigor Mortis and Tristan's blink-strike are the same. Blink+Damage.
And Stormbolt and Taint are the same. Cripple + Damage.
And...

Serisouly what's up with all that taking out single spells just to search remotely similar abilities that are already in the map? Who gives a damn as long as they're not 100% copies? There are +20 heroes in the map, there's no way around spells overlapping each other... I don't see how that's supposed to help in any way.
Sounds like Tristan very much. Why is there even a delay?
Sounds like a melee ability. The enemy gets knocked back, after 1 second he teleports to the enemy and the blink distance adds to the damage that Innertia causes would be my guess.
I really don't see how a ward fits this hero, honestly.
Agreed.

Plus I doubt that it will be possible to use the ward like you imagine it in the chaos of battle. >:
Humans don't have the patience to wait even ten minutes for something!

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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by Beat_Down_ » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:07 pm

What a great name! :D
Tomorrows a brand new day,
so take from right now, all you need
Tomorrows a brand new start
it's a shame that, I'm happy with today

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TheDeathstalker
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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by TheDeathstalker » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:41 pm

Thanks for the feedback guys.

First off, yeah, 300 Pound Punch is a melee attack, so you slap them with this, they go flying, then a second later you blink to them. I'll make that more clear in the skill tip. I guess the ways this could be used are fairly interesting, first of all, use it with the first skill, slap them, run the other direction, then blink to them, and count it as covering a significantly higher total distance traveled for the bang at the end. Another use would be slap them with it, drop the ward, and blink next to it, ruining all the enemies and potentially crippling the whole lot of them as the fumble around trying to chase you. And then, of course, there's the last use which is simply to hit someone, chase them, then blink half an inch to them and have them ruined. I dunno, it seemed like it could be fun, and not too too busy a skill.

On the Ult, I can't believe I missed that, so yeah, that's a fail on my part. I guess my only options would be drop the ult for something else (not sure what), or to make the ult convert all of Maim or Blind into some other condition (potentially Blind or Maim), but I'm not sure about that one...

And the Ward, yeah, I see your point, and it kinda fails in that respect, I guess I saw it as an ability you can fire into a group of conditioned units, then just slap them around randomly, crippling and dealing some bonus damage to the whole lot of them. But I guess it does kinda break his flow. My only other idea for a summon for him would be to actually summon up rocks to knock people into, causing them to take additional damage or some such, like as follows:

Pinball Wizard - Passive
Whenever a unit dies while being knocked back, a Fragger Rock is summoned where they stop. The rock is immobile and has no attack, but if an enemy is knocked back into the Rock, the rock shatters, dealing X Physical Damage in a small AoE and crippling for Y seconds. Can knockback.

But I don't know if that actually works or not, although it may fit him a bit better...

Oh, yeah, on the innate thing, I guess I'll just switch it from 1s to Xs, as that probably depends pretty much on the hero's attack speed and such.

Thanks again for the feedback, who knows, maybe this hero could actually work out!
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

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Oxygen
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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by Oxygen » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:13 pm

2-P wrote: Serisouly what's up with all that taking out single spells just to search remotely similar abilities that are already in the map? Who gives a damn as long as they're not 100% copies? There are +20 heroes in the map, there's no way around spells overlapping each other... I don't see how that's supposed to help in any way.
You only have 4 spells. If one of them is literally the same as some other, then not only will one spell overlap, but you'll also have 2 heroes with a similar gameplay. dusk specifically asked for something different anyway, and instead of nitpicking on what I say, you should try to suggest something to improve. blink is overused and honestly too big of an advantage in doe, don't you have any other idea for a displacement spell?

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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by TheDeathstalker » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:02 pm

Oxygen wrote:blink is overused and honestly too big of an advantage in doe, don't you have any other idea for a displacement spell?
Oh? I hadn't really considered, to be honest. I don't mean to steal anything you may have cooking for Carnage, but if you've got any ideas, I'd be more than happy to hear them. As for myself, I'll keep brainstorming, because there's got to be some badass potential buried in there... hrm....
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

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Oxygen
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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by Oxygen » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:39 am

TheDeathstalker wrote:
Oxygen wrote:blink is overused and honestly too big of an advantage in doe, don't you have any other idea for a displacement spell?
Oh? I hadn't really considered, to be honest. I don't mean to steal anything you may have cooking for Carnage, but if you've got any ideas, I'd be more than happy to hear them. As for myself, I'll keep brainstorming, because there's got to be some badass potential buried in there... hrm....
eh, the only remotely blinky spell right now is a double hooky spell, and I personally haven't thought of anything, "even for carnage" (actually, I have, but it's retarded as hell and scrapped, so I won't say it), so no, don't know.

carnage stuff wouldn't fit in here anyway, no chance of idea stealing or whatever, don't worry about that, I basically put aside all good ideas in a box when trying to create a doe hero

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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by Kurogamon » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:17 pm

Ooh, I like how you're using knockback. Fascinating.

Yes, I don't like the ult that much. Convert the conditions into bleed seems like it would be appropriate given the name.

The innate should me made toggleable. Knockback and self-inflicted conditions are sometimes what you don't need.

Inertia seems interesting, but to make the most use of it, you have to inflict conditions on yourself.
The best way to inflict conditions on yourself is to stop and attack.
But now you're not moving.
Perhaps you can base the MS bonuses off something else, or allow things like damage taken/dealt to influence the final amount of damage dealt?

What is the point of the ruin with 300 pound punch?
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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by TheDeathstalker » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:32 pm

Kurogamon wrote:Yes, I don't like the ult that much. Convert the conditions into bleed seems like it would be appropriate given the name.
That's something I was thinking about, I just wasn't sure of a condition that would fit very well, but bleed probably would. The only problem with this is he would make himself bleed no matter what, on every attack that hits, and that's... unsustainable. This is probably what I'm most unsure about with the hero as it stands.
Kurogamon wrote:The innate should me made toggleable. Knockback and self-inflicted conditions are sometimes what you don't need.
I'd argue otherwise... the entire hero is built around using knockback at every turn, and about compensating for the two conditions it gets. Otherwise he's just a hero that bums around punching people, and without the conditions or knockback, two of his skills are quickly dropped to almost nothing.
Kurogamon wrote:Inertia seems interesting, but to make the most use of it, you have to inflict conditions on yourself.
The best way to inflict conditions on yourself is to stop and attack.
But now you're not moving.
Perhaps you can base the MS bonuses off something else, or allow things like damage taken/dealt to influence the final amount of damage dealt?
And here is where we get into the fun of the hero, or at least so far as I see. First off, yes, to add the conditions, you need to stop and hit someone. But at the same time, stopping to hit will also knock them back, causing you to run after them with increased speed. Now, add the ult into the mix, and you get to choose between blind, fast attacks to build up the conditions, and thus speed, and thus distance and damage, or maimed heavy ones, increasing the conditions at a slower pace, but with a bigger payoff at the end, as the damage it would deal would be increased. Or, of course, mix the two for greater effect.

I guess my thought is that with the ult, you have two avenues of attack for every circumstance. You can either blindly do it fast and often, or slowly do it very heavily.
Kurogamon wrote:What is the point of the ruin with 300 pound punch?
Ruin decreases armor, which increases physical damage taken. Slap somebody with 300pp, run after them, ruin them as you teleport, profit. Otherwise, Hit someone with it, run the other direction with the 1st skill, teleport to them, doubling your distance, again, profit.
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by Kurogamon » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:50 pm

TheDeathstalker wrote:
Kurogamon wrote:The innate should me made toggleable. Knockback and self-inflicted conditions are sometimes what you don't need.
I'd argue otherwise... the entire hero is built around using knockback at every turn, and about compensating for the two conditions it gets. Otherwise he's just a hero that bums around punching people, and without the conditions or knockback, two of his skills are quickly dropped to almost nothing.
Well, say you're battling multiple weak heroes, and you really need that fast second attack to hit them, and they manage to run away because you're inflicting blind or maim, either of which are pretty likely to make that situation difficult. It's like the Assassination skill from NoB, slows you in exchange for damage when you're close to an enemy hero, but it was annoying because you couldn't turn it off.

EDIT: Oh, I see. I wasn't suggesting that it should cost anything, just something handy to turn off and on for free with a CD just for preventing abuse.
TheDeathStalker wrote:
Kurogamon wrote:Inertia seems interesting, but to make the most use of it, you have to inflict conditions on yourself.
The best way to inflict conditions on yourself is to stop and attack.
But now you're not moving.
Perhaps you can base the MS bonuses off something else, or allow things like damage taken/dealt to influence the final amount of damage dealt?
And here is where we get into the fun of the hero, or at least so far as I see. First off, yes, to add the conditions, you need to stop and hit someone. But at the same time, stopping to hit will also knock them back, causing you to run after them with increased speed. Now, add the ult into the mix, and you get to choose between blind, fast attacks to build up the conditions, and thus speed, and thus distance and damage, or maimed heavy ones, increasing the conditions at a slower pace, but with a bigger payoff at the end, as the damage it would deal would be increased. Or, of course, mix the two for greater effect.

I guess my thought is that with the ult, you have two avenues of attack for every circumstance. You can either blindly do it fast and often, or slowly do it very heavily.
Maim is -50% to both attack speed AND damage, so it wouldn't be so heavy.
TheDeathStalker wrote:
Kurogamon wrote:What is the point of the ruin with 300 pound punch?
Ruin decreases armor, which increases physical damage taken. Slap somebody with 300pp, run after them, ruin them as you teleport, profit. Otherwise, Hit someone with it, run the other direction with the 1st skill, teleport to them, doubling your distance, again, profit.
That reasoning makes ruin fit almost any damage skill. I don't really object to it, it just looked kind of out of place and not particularly tightly fitting.
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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by TheDeathstalker » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:03 pm

Kurogamon wrote:Well, say you're battling multiple weak heroes, and you really need that fast second attack to hit them, and they manage to run away because you're inflicting blind or maim, either of which are pretty likely to make that situation difficult. It's like the Assassination skill from NoB, slows you in exchange for damage when you're close to an enemy hero, but it was annoying because you couldn't turn it off.
Ok, well, I guess you didn't see it initially, but the original value for X in the innate was 1 second, although Oxy pointed out that makes it meaningless, but in theory, unless you start knocking back a lot of units at once, the maim/blind isn't going to be so epicly heavy a factor to deny you a kill on a weak hero if you make proper use of it. In addition, it can be easily turned off by use of WWP or one of those nice little pink potions (or, although I doubt it would really be that huge an advantage, an Optic Amulet).

In addition, I'd argue that that doesn't really fall within the role of this hero quite so much. Knocking back enemies isn't too conducive to chasing, although the first skill, if used well, would compensate for this.
Kurogamon wrote:Maim is -50% to both attack speed AND damage, so it wouldn't be so heavy.
The X additional damage from the ult would inherently be significantly more than the -50% damage. In addition, it affects all physical damage, so throw in the 1st 2nd and 3rd skills to that.
Kurogamon wrote:That reasoning makes ruin fit almost any damage skill. I don't really object to it, it just looked kind of out of place and not particularly tightly fitting.
I guess I should probably be more clear. Ruin decreases armor, which increases physical damage, which in turn increases knockback distances, which are based off of the amount of physical damage.
And though you come out of each gruelling bout,
All broken and beaten and scarred,
Just have one more try—it’s dead easy to die,
It’s the keeping-on-living that’s hard.

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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by Kurogamon » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:41 pm

TheDeathstalker wrote: Ok, well, I guess you didn't see it initially, but the original value for X in the innate was 1 second, although Oxy pointed out that makes it meaningless, but in theory, unless you start knocking back a lot of units at once, the maim/blind isn't going to be so epicly heavy a factor to deny you a kill on a weak hero if you make proper use of it. In addition, it can be easily turned off by use of WWP or one of those nice little pink potions (or, although I doubt it would really be that huge an advantage, an Optic Amulet).

In addition, I'd argue that that doesn't really fall within the role of this hero quite so much. Knocking back enemies isn't too conducive to chasing, although the first skill, if used well, would compensate for this.
Toggleable innate wouldn't hurt, costs nothing and 1 second CD. Who knows, a situation might come up where knockback is annoying.
TheDeathStalker wrote: The X additional damage from the ult would inherently be significantly more than the -50% damage. In addition, it affects all physical damage, so throw in the 1st 2nd and 3rd skills to that.
Forgot about the ult damage boost. Nice, I guess.
TheDeathStalker wrote:I guess I should probably be more clear. Ruin decreases armor, which increases physical damage, which in turn increases knockback distances, which are based off of the amount of physical damage.
k.
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Re: Rawwk, The Beatdown

Post by Rising_Dusk » Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:25 pm

Review:
  • General Pros:
    - Bonus points for the clever skill name, Innertia. I chuckled.
    - Innertia is also a neat spell, but it could be developed further. Let's say:
    Innertia
    • No Target, Instant Cast.
      If Rawwk suffers more than 10% of his max life in damage in the next 6 seconds, he gains 12 seconds of X% increased move and attack speed. When this extra buff ends, all nearby foes take Y physical damage based on the distance Rawwk moved during the extra buff.
    Something like that would feel a lot cooler. It'd also make enemies think twice about hitting him when he has it on. (Yay, deterrent)
  • General Cons:
    - Okay, well, you went with an innate - you've got balls for doing that. However, let's just analyze this a bit in depth. First of all, I would like to make the movement that it is in no way critical to the way the hero plays. Actually, it utterly detracts from the hero until the forced synergy with the ult comes to play - that means 5 levels of your attacks and spells making your attacks and spells suck. Let's consider the case where you remove both the innate and the ult's forced interaction with those conditions; is the hero worse off? No, actually, he's better off, since now his ult can do something else and he doesn't blind himself ad infinitum, making his attacks miss 75% of the time and when they hit do 50% less damage at 50% slower speed. Adding onto that, the physical damage knocking back makes his attacks break channeling, which in and of itself is pretty high-quality, unavoidable imbalance. Also, one last thing, did you ever consider that the innate might be better as a passive on the hero instead of an innate?
    - The teleport on 3PP feels really wonky. You've got this big, chunky dude that knocks back on hit... Teleporting?
    - You know, reading over the hero, I suddenly realized I hadn't even noticed there being a summon. But 'lo, there it is in the passive. Why does he summon a rock where they die when being knocked back? No one knows. Why does this help him at all? Again, no one knows. Why does the rock knockback when it breaks? Good question. About the only thing I really like with it is the collision cripple and the capacity for the hero to knockback enemies into them. That is cool. My only strife is that the knockback is too readily available. (They could spawn way cooler than on-death while being knocked back. I mean, does that even make sense?)
    - Ult is terribly boring. I mean, toggled passive that really doesn't command a certain style or challenge or awesome. (Re: Atrius' Ult) It just does some boring benefits on top of some silly condition swapping that he shouldn't have to do but does because the innate makes him suck.
  • Final Thoughts:
    - I'm sorry to say it, but the hero really isn't all that exciting to me. The ult is a downright disappointment, the summons really don't make a lot of sense and seem kind of tacked on (the hero seems to play more like Kassar, who doesn't have any summons), and the innate knockback is just silly and hardcore unfair because of the 100% chance to stop channeling when doing anything that deals damage. It just lacks the real oomph to make it feel like an awesome hero, it's missing a lot of somethings and just doesn't get there at all.
  • End Grade:
    C
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