free will (?)

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polishgangsta
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free will (?)

Post by polishgangsta » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:47 am

Something I've been thinking about for a while:

Where do our thoughts come from and why do we think? Why can any organism make a choice? Is free will real or just an illusion?

If reality is correct from an Athiest's standpoint, and a living creature is just a complex array of chemical reactions, why would there be free will? No chemical reaction can choose the course of its own reaction. Even if this doesn't imply determinism (heh, in b4 quantum mechanics gives randomness), per se, doesn't it mean that the response an organism has to a stimulus is predecided, and that human thought is just a complicated reaction to such stimuli? Did the ability to choose somehow appear from nothingness during our transition from complex protein (no control) to simple organism (limited control ?)?

If reality is correct from a spiritual person's standpoint, is the soul the source of choice? If so, does every living organism have a soul (since even relatively basic organisms have to make basic choices)? If not, then from whence does free will come?

Yeah, philosophical babbling at ~5-6 a.m. I'm not really sure how coherrent the arguement is, but it seems to have sound reasoning (at least at the time of typing this). I'm not claiming to know any in depth knowledge in biology, physics, chemistry, philosophy,neurology, theology, etc, but I think I know enough of the basics so that my arguement at least is plausible.

What do you guys think? Or can you ?!?!?!??! (dun dun dun)
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Oxygen
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Re: free will (?)

Post by Oxygen » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:51 am

If your will was determined by something greater, how come everyone isn't doing the right thing?
If your will was determined by something greater, it'd destroy any concept of religion; according to them, you are supposed to believe; but if your life is predetermined ( aka, I'm predetermined to be an athetist ) then, is it my fault if I don't believe?

I think it's extremely lame to believe in destiny, because what would be the point of life? Okay, we all end up dying at some point, but what is this feeling that's pushing us to survive?

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Kaome Sky Deathand
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Re: free will (?)

Post by Kaome Sky Deathand » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:25 pm

'LIfe' is an abomination.
A horrible distortion of the natural order. This 'life' who mothered pain, and fear, and envy. These twisted children who only exist because we are here to feed them, to nourish them. This 'life' is an afterthought, a disturbance, a mere ripple in the great dead sea. Not even the cause, merely an effect, sending souls screaming outwards for release from the day they are torn from their waters. The effect of what?
I do not know, nor do I care.
~Extract from the Retribution Theory

Do we have free will? Of course. We have the ability to choose what we are going to do and when. If both of those are taken from us, then we decide how. If you say how is taken from you, then you are nothing but a simplistic coward who gives in to 'the hub of the wheel' and maybe it was best you didn't have a body in the first place. Even now people will choose whether or not to only read this topic or reply to it. I'm not making anyone post. I don't have a gun to their head with duct tape keeping their hands on the board. There is no knife-wielding maniac holding their family hostage. They either will, or will not.

That said,the Devil has the best illusion act in the world, Destiny sleeps with every girl and guy that is brimming with self-confidence, and Fate has a nasty habit of being underhanded when you least expect it. Do they all exist?
Sure, but I've never met them.

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simultaneously the source of our greatest strength, and our greatest weakness.

Soon we shall be One...joined in the Word.

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Oxygen
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Re: free will (?)

Post by Oxygen » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:23 pm

what kaome said

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Deschain
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Re: free will (?)

Post by Deschain » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:16 pm

Oxygen wrote:If your will was determined by something greater, how come everyone isn't doing the right thing?
If your will was determined by something greater, it'd destroy any concept of religion; according to them, you are supposed to believe; but if your life is predetermined ( aka, I'm predetermined to be an athetist ) then, is it my fault if I don't believe?
What makes you think that greater means more benevolent, what makes you think that you have any matter in the whole issue.
If good has indeed created us and heavens and the earth. Why would he care about us more than he cares for ants or lions or stars?
No I don't think God created us. I think something far worse than God breathed life into us. Necessity. /Kaome mod off

If something was different. If gravity was stronger than electricity the world would've collapsed and we wouldn't be here to write meaningless electronic messages to each other. In other words we live the life we live because all other possible lives have been taken by someone else.

I believe the world is a giant snake devouring and recreating itself a countless time over and over. Some would call it heaven some would call it hell. Every decision we make only determines the world that is behind us. Our past. From it numerous, but countable roads go from it. We choose which one to take but there is only a limited amount of possibilities we can take.
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Re: free will (?)

Post by vesuvan » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:01 pm

Something I've been thinking about for a while:
Have you thought about it, or have you lazily mulled it with no intention of coming to a meaningful answer, or a meaningful question? Thinking about something is not the same as acknowledging or even dismissing.

This is my biggest pet peeve, a person confuses their sophomoric muses with profundity just because they are too poorly read to know just how unremarkable their question is. I realize that the questioning is often more important than the answer, but the existence or confirmed nonexistence of answers utterly ruins any value the question had in the first place.

It's like the man who asks if his whole world is just a simulation and he is a brain in a jar. "Oh I bet you can't disprove that smarty-pants! I have shattered your concept of reality with my powers of primitive existentialism!".

Please come up with something else that is interesting to think about, because you answered all your own questions.
a living creature is just a complex array of chemical reactions
...
the response an organism has to a stimulus is predecided, and that human thought is just a complicated reaction to such stimuli
These are proven facts of biology, neurology, and physics.

edit: I toned down the harshness. I apologize for the unnecessary bashing.
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Re: free will (?)

Post by Hell_Tempest » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:10 pm

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Re: free will (?)

Post by TheIrishPatriot » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:37 pm

What Kaome said. And the first section of what Ves said. Only shorter words. And more rawrs. And more broken sentences. Um.
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Read my prose please :).
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Re: free will (?)

Post by Hell_Tempest » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:00 pm

Hell_Tempest wrote:No Kings. No God. Only Man.
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polishgangsta
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Re: free will (?)

Post by polishgangsta » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:22 pm

heh, well, the real question i was getting at is: why can we choose?

My questions were sincere, not an attempt to be profound. I am not an atheist, so I cannot know in what ways an atheist views the idea of free will (and, from some brief research on the interwebs, I've found that there is little agreement). I'm not saying that all my points are right or original (see naturalism), but I was merely wondering if the atheists of the website would be willing to except the idea that their beliefs seem to dispute the idea of free will, or welcome any challanges against my post they might have (like I said, my questions were sincere, not necessarilly rhetorical).

I think some of you misunderstood my point. I personally believe in free will. But if the entirity of our beings were to only exist in the realm of the physical (as ves clearly believes), then how do we choose? I'm not saying you are forced to do anything, but (if that is true) your very thoughts and actions have already been decided (even with the randomness that quantum mech. seems to present, the truth would be that our "free will" would only be the end result of the uncontrollable movement of mass and energy). If you don't believe in a soul (or other equivalent), then where would the choice to do anything stem from?

Maybe i'm not reading your posts right but it seems:

OXY- doesn't believe in soul (i think that's what you meant by something greater- unless you meant god), but believes in choice and agrees with Kao.

KAO- Believes in free will and I think misunderstands my post (I could be wrong...)

sera- limited choices and an (evil?) god/snake.

VES- thinks i'm my post is psuedo-intellectual and believes (quite strongly) in the lack of free will (or so i gather, and no need to apologize (to me at least), and i haven't read any of the comments until now, so i have no idea what has been edited).

Hell- No Kings. No God. Only Man. Twice.

TiP- Agrees with Kao (so yes to free will (?)) and ves pt. 1 (so yes to me being psuedo-intellectual), but less ellegantly (i guess).

As for the value of my question: the fact that people have posted several distinct views of "free will", should be (i would hope) proof enough (after all, the purpose of a question is to cause discussion to find a "true" answer to itself.) I see no reason a question can't be answered (even though this one hasn't been, imo) and still have worth.

Perhaps it would be best to give my view on the matter.
I believe in some sort of greater being (God, gods, aliens, Spaghetti Monster, the Force, w/e) (the why to this would be another topic entirely). I believe in free will (or would like to), but i realize that this is something i can neither prove nor disprove. I'd like to think that wonders of human thought and accomplishments can't be entirely the result of random chemical reactions, but, once again, can't prove this (and the human brain is far too poorly researched, imo). My point was, I like the idea of free will (as do most people), but no one can prove or dissprove it's exisence. This topic is not meant to decide whether or not free will exists, but to share how we feel about the matter.

Edit: aslo, keep in mind, at 5:00 in the morning i ramble a lot... *looks at wall of text above this edit*... and after work... Q _Q
Edit pt. 2: another interesting read
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Re: free will (?)

Post by Deschain » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:36 am

polishgangsta wrote: I see no reason a question can't be answered (even though this one hasn't been, imo) and still have worth.
A good question is the one it hard or impossible to answer.
polishgangsta wrote: Perhaps it would be best to give my view on the matter.
I believe in some sort of greater being (God, gods, aliens, Spaghetti Monster, the Force, w/e) (the why to this would be another topic entirely). I believe in free will (or would like to), but i realize that this is something i can neither prove nor disprove.
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" some would say. But I believe that only through discussion and conflict new, better things may come.

Computers are limited. MS Word program cannot run simulations or answer the question what is the meaning of its existence.
Free will, God, Morality, Reason, Infinity, Nothingness etc. are all subjects we cannot logically comprehend. Those are questions we cannot answer, just like a computer cant do somethings it isn't program to do. So we go around them. We discuss and through discussion and agreement we deal with them. We approximate, adapt and abstract and we make a bridge around this giant hole in our comprehension. Hopefully one day it will be solved. Until then... we can discuss.
This is why I have dislike for religion even though it causes conflict it pays no heed to the discussion. It is calcified. It's dogmatised. It accepts itself as the utmost truth.

What I think polish wanted to start is a discussion or a debate and if so I applaud him for doing so. Think how many people go through their lives never even thinking about a question like is there free will, let alone discuss it. Ask yourselves did your mother, father, brother, sister, friend (not counting internet acquaintances ) ever asked you: Who are we? What are we? Where did we all come from? Where did the universe come from? (not counting questions kids ask)
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Re: free will (?)

Post by Hydrolisk » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:50 am

I think we're all born from a constant growing ball of chaos, ever spinning out of control and producing the most doubtful and ridiculous of outcomes, of which that chaos will dissipate or continue on to be another reality; another chaos. As for free will, nothing has convinced me that here is or isn't anythig preventing it, so I believe that we do have free will, to some extent and only relative to our own level of perception of reality. This construct that is existence is laughable and overdone, and the topic of free will is comparatively useless. If you can understand me, it's just chance that we're still here now and not at all, but at the same time, we perceive it as existing "normally." In possible truth; we have all these other "ourselves" who are parallel...

Bah, I need more sleep.
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Re: free will (?)

Post by Hell_Tempest » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:05 am

I could tell from your ramblings :D
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Re: free will (?)

Post by The Colonel » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:20 am

Our will is simply the mixxings of chemical reactions and remembered events. Events are remembered through electricity and chemicals and such. Bah, I'm sure I could go look up which enables us to remember, but I'm feeling oddly lazy at the moment.
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Re: free will (?)

Post by Bregan » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:18 pm

actually, the whole "gun to your head or knife to your family" thing doesnt change free will. it may "influence" your decision, but the end choice is still ultimately your own. same thing with "good and evil". in the end, the dont really exist, so you CAN do ANYTHING (inb4 things humans cant do).
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