The Cold War, Part 2

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Die_Dummy
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The Cold War, Part 2

Post by Die_Dummy » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:07 pm

"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," the president said in a televised statement from the White House, calling on Moscow to sign on to the outlines of a cease-fire as the Georgian government has done.
Because no democratic country would overthrow another government and mess it up (cough* how many goverments have we overthrown again, I lost count)
might bomb the civilian airport in the capital of Tbilisi.
Because we have never done anything like that.


We should go to war with Russia and be done with it, we've had bad blood from WW2, just get it over with so everything can go back to normal.
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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by andriejj » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:53 am

Russians are just bandits, that's it. They think they can do what they want in the former USSR, and nobody can forbid them. Their "society" won't change it, because they care only about themselves and twink the whole rest. Russian folk votes only for those with power. Their insensibility is just astounding. I might sound xenophobic, but that's the true. Generations must die, to change the mentality, and years have to pass, before they overthrow the governing clique, that twinking mafia-Kremlin-communist-gas-FSB/KGB establishment. That partly concerns Poland too, we're not THAT twinked up, but our society and politics flaw a lot either.

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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by Deschain » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:37 am

Russians are just bandits, that's it.
Nah Russians just want to show they can pull a action just like NATO/USA when they want. It is a dick measuring competition with a touch of land grabbing.

Actually no Dummy best thing to do is that all states fire all their missiles (atomic, thermonuclear, intercontinental...) in the air. It will purge the Earth from the corruption of humanity and allow bacterias and worms to once again take over the world :D Yay Fallout.
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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by Sabertooth » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:57 am

I herd that Georgia attacked first, why we're all jumping over the Russians is beyond me.

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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by TheIrishPatriot » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:28 pm

It's more complicated then that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war


Personally, I think Russia is just using this as an excuse to flex.
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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by andriejj » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:08 pm

Sabertooth wrote:I herd that Georgia attacked first, why we're all jumping over the Russians is beyond me.
Liez.

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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by Tupolev » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:23 pm

Georgia did attack S. Ossetia, killing well over a thousand people and razing the capital. Russia's response isn't really that much different from what the US did in Serbia in '99, the biggest difference being that Western media and politics aren't on the side of the retaliation. It's not like Georgia was just carrying out tactical strikes on S. Ossetia's military capacities; I mean, there's a reason why Russia has been allocating something like $620,000,000 for humanitarian aid to S. Ossetia.

Let's face it, South Ossetia doesn't belong as part of Georgia for the same reasons that Kosovo doesn't belong as part of Serbia, and that Georgia felt they had to destroy cities and massacre civilians to make their goals proves it. Personally, I think S. Ossetia should be given the decision to either become independant or merge with N. Ossetia as part of Russia, and hostilities should remain ceased. Not sure about Abkhazia though. Not like my plan would be taken seriously by Western politics ever, mainly because it looks at it from a practical standpoint of preventing future wars rather than from a 'let's make Russia look bad!' standpoint.

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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by Deschain » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:29 pm

Tupolev wrote:Let's face it, South Ossetia doesn't belong as part of Georgia for the same reasons that Kosovo doesn't belong as part of Serbia, and that Georgia felt they had to destroy cities and massacre civilians to make their goals proves it. Personally, I think S. Ossetia should be given the decision to either become independant or merge with N. Ossetia as part of Russia, and hostilities should remain ceased. Not sure about Abkhazia though. Not like my plan would be taken seriously by Western politics ever, mainly because it looks at it from a practical standpoint of preventing future wars rather than from a 'let's make Russia look bad!' standpoint.
Ouch man I'm from Serbia, don't rub it in.
Wait so when a bunch of guys lives somewhere but doesn't fit and riots, and an idiotic presidents calls for stupid military action, you should give them a state?

You know how many regions would then wanna merge with/create new states? And besides how would you count the votes? All Georgia or just South Ossetia? Cause if you count just in S. Ossestia, then hell I wanna make my own state in my backyard and buy me some nuclear warheads, yeee....haaa.
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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by The Colonel » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:23 am

Well theoretically in the United States you can form your own nation when ever you want, but then you loose access to the the sewer systems(No flushing), trash disposal, electricity, water, and civil services such as Police, Firemen, and hospitals. Also war could be declared on you and nobody would care.
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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by andriejj » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:41 pm

Russian soldiers burned down villages, commited rapes and murders. If that's not banditism, then I don't know what is.

Creating a new country out of that would be ridiculous. Joining it with Russia would be even worse, encouraging them to take more actions like that.

Btw, I'm not saying Georgia didn't do anything wrong. But military vendetta in our times? Please...

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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by Tupolev » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:43 pm

andriejj wrote:Russian soldiers burned down villages, commited rapes and murders. If that's not banditism, then I don't know what is.
Says who, Mikheil Saakashvili? The same fellow who was whining about how Gori was captured and Russians were encircling Tblisi while at the same time Reuter's reporters in the area were reporting Gori as being totally deserted with nobody, not even Russians, in sight? The same guy who neglects to mention the hundreds or thousands of civilians his own forces butchered (note: It HAS, on the other hand, been confirmed that areas in S. Ossetia are wrecked by Georgian attacks. For example, Georgian Grad rocket hit confirmed on a hospital.) while complaining about imageanary Russian assaults? The same guy who's playing the generic anti-fascist card to the point where even American authorities admit confusion of some claims?

I've been following this thing from the begining, and it seems like the only areas where Russians actually moved into Georgia proper were mostly evacuated regions around Abkhazia. Mikheil Saakashvili has spouted so much crap at this point that he accuses Russia of rape and murder, Russia was probably giving children candy. Why aren't people accusing Georgia of the same stuff by the way, given that there's actually evidence that they're guilty?

How do I put this? Both sides are accusing the other of murdering large quantities of civilians, but Georgia is the only of the two nations that actually mounted a strategic assault on an unevacuated civilian area.



At this point, Georgia's accusations are almost laughable (But not, because the situation sucks). Georgia has even claimed that Russia helped expell 300,000 ethnic Georgians from the seperatist regions. Evidently Georgia doesn't understand that you can't expell more people than there are. Hint: Between the two regions, there's around 80,000 ethnic Georgians.



edit: Looking back on what I said, I guess I change my mind on the Kosovo matter. Now that I think about it, the whole deal with Kosovo was an 8-years-after-the-fact thing that wouldn't have been an issue if the Kosovar Albanians hadn't randomly started getting western urging to complain a lot.
I'm not sure about the Georgian seperatists though, really. Georgia is claiming to be all westernized and natoing and then pulls this crap 17 years after the Soviet Union fell; Serbia still had stuff to get over in '99, and it did. Georgia got over stuff but then dove back into having issues while trying to be awesome, which makes it a lot more awkward. At the very least, control over their breakaway regions should be internationally recognized as suspended and managed by an international body until a more diplomatic means of national reintegration could be made after thigs cool down (ie, not shooting up cities and demanding submission).

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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by Halnodor2 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:43 pm

Ok, I'm going to have shed some light on the situation, its being discussed by my family and we see both sides because we live in America yet we have a ton of family and friends in Russia (We are still Russian citizens formally).

First of all the President is a puppet, Putin is the real one in control. So you should be listening to what Putin is saying rather then the "President".Putin's party (United Russia who's hes president of) have the overwhelming majority in all bodies of government. Over Putin's official term he has being breaking and worsting relations with every nation it borders aside from a few weird ones like China (they are more powerful). Each of these tensions have being overblown by the government on purpose but were never instigated by the government (allowing the Citizens to think that they are doing the "right thing").

Western Europe is powerless to do anything because Russia is the main supplier of crude oil and natural gas to Europe. They must appease. Due to this Putin is free to lay down a web to of troubles for other countries to get mired in. Anyone who steps into the web will trigger it and will incur Russia's wrath, note this is all being done in plain sight.

The Caucasus Mountains are not one really united region, many significantly different groups and nationalities live there with many tensions between each other. The history of violence in this region spans more then 100 years, and many groups want to join Russia and clear borders are not really present, others want independence a very complex situation.

What happened in Georgia, South Ossetia wanted to join Russia (not without hidden pressure by Russia though) Russia provided a ton of passports to the residents (through Ossetia's local government ran by a former KGB member) of Ossetia, when Ossetia began an uprising, Georgian troops were sent to put it down. Russia said that Georgia attacked its citizens and that Russia had a fully legal role to respond in force (obviously it didn't)

After words Russia completely destroyed Georgia military and economic power, luckily for Russia the only other crude oil line to western Europe. America declared its aid for Georgia. Then they started negotiate with Poland to install missile defense system in Poland. Russia threatens to respond in more then just diplomacy.

Putin looks to regain a lot of the power of the Soviet union. A war right now with Russia could mean Nuclear disaster. (seriously this isn't like Iraq). That's my two cents on the matter. This was not something completely new or unexpected this has being developing over the past 8 years.
Last edited by Halnodor2 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by TheIrishPatriot » Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:26 am

Makes sense. Heard the Hungarian side of the family talking about how it's about oil, but people don't want to say it >.< Didn't really listen to the details, though.
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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by andriejj » Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:06 pm

Nice post, Halnodor.

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Re: The Cold War, Part 2

Post by Deschain » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:45 am

Update. Situation in Georgia with each day reminds me more and more of Kosovo. Especially Russians denying protection to Georgian returnees.
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