Gaza strip being cleared out

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TheLegendReborn
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:01 am

It could be million, it could be half a million, but it doesn't matter. Some other country acting worse than you is no excuse for doing bad things.
I never said it was an excuse nor did I want it to seem like it was my main argument. However I have gone over many other reasons why Israel shouldn't be so scrutinized but all you have done is flicked them aside as if they were nothing. The whole reason I talked about other countries and their real genocides was that you used the word 'Holocaust' and also it's something to wonder about when the conflict gets so much attention while many more lives are lost elsewhere in the world.
You forgot to add that during those 3 years of "sitting", Israel did nothing to make peace. They were mainly threatening Iran with airstrikes if they make a nuke. And going defensive, what they do the best.
Where are you pulling this from? Israel firstly pulled out of the Aza Strip without even asking for anything in return from it. Israel has also been having many negotiations with Fatach in the West Bank because you are able to have negotiations with them. It had even reached a point where Israel has debated putting part of Jerusalem on the table for peace in a two state solution. Mind you many times Israel has offered to give the Palestinians all of the Aza Strip and the West Bank but time and time again it has been turned down.

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andriejj
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:01 am

Just to have you updated... Israelian army forced 110 civilians into a building (supposedely safe), told them not leave it and then, they bombed it. 30 of them died. That's UN news, it happened on the 4th of January, look how delayed that information was. Counted up, 760 people already died from Israelian bomb, with over 800 overall casualties. Israel has lost 3 soldiers. EDIT: in the news they just said 14, but didn't specify, if all fourteen were soldiers.

International Red Cross left Palestine after the Israel forces bombed one of their cars with medicines for one of the Palestinian hospitals and after Israelian soldiers killed 2 drivers of a UN convoy with humanitarian aid, which made UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) cease its operations in Palestine.

Only good news is that the UN ordered Israel to cease its operations and leave Palestine, USA didn't block it, only abstained. Bad news is that both Israel and Hamas don't give a shi.t about it. Cipi Liwni, Israelian minister of foreign affairs, said that it's all 'our buisiness' (meaning other countries can make resolutions, condemn them and it won't matter, Israel will do what it wants to do).

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VZBushkiller20
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by VZBushkiller20 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:48 pm

I apologize that Israel doesn't seem to want to listen to the UN telling them to stop. It is really shocking that an organization like the UN allows its members to disobey its resolutions. Oh wait, no it is not. If I recall correctly, Israel sits next to Iran in the UN council, a country which has ignored the UN's resolution that Israel is a sovereign state since 1948.

And yes, 800 civilians is a lot. Those dirty Jews. Hey China, when you get around to it, can you stop oppressing the Tibetans? We'd really appreciate it if you didn't kill one million of them. And America? Could you please cease attacking those poor Iraqis and Afghans? Thanks. Oh sure, do it when you are ready, we'll wait. What's that Sudan? The genocide in Darfur is still going on? Well we have bigger problems here. Israel is defending their borders against terrorists that use human shields.

Why do you think Israel doesn't want to listen to the UN? They want to reinstate a ceasefire that wasn't a ceasefire at all. They are spineless toothless nags when it comes to conflicts. Red Cross? Last time I checked, they were still sending aid to Darfur and China. Is that not a humanitarian crisis greater than the one is Israel? I'm pretty sure the Tibetans aren't firing missiles at the Chinese.

I am not denying that Israel is killing civilians. War is hell. The Geneva convention? Show me how it is working out in Iraq. And for the record, the UN driver was destroyed by bullet fire, not a tank shell as reported by the so pro-Israel BBC News. I apologize that the Israelis do not have bullets that can distinguish between a UN driver and a terrorist. Maybe they would get on that if they weren't, oh you know, being assaulted by missiles even during a truce.
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andriejj
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:24 am

Please, stop detracting the thread to China, Sudan or wherever else. That's just not comparable and that's not the case. Create a new thread, if you feel so obliged to condemn them.

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by The Colonel » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:41 pm

Eh, I feel bushkiller has a point.
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by VZBushkiller20 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:55 pm

Thank you colonel, but I think andriejj missed where I was going.

You are so ready to condemn Israel, but they are fighting against people that are attacking them first and back. 4681 rockets and mortars were launched from Gaza into Israel. When was this? over the course of two years, 2007 and 2008. And this was during a ceasefire.

I bring up China because they are committing a genocide against a people that WON'T fight back. Israel's goal is not to kill the Palestinians. If that was their objective, we'd see attacks in the West Bank. Their goal is to destroy a terrorist government whose charter states that Israel must be destroyed. You can't negotiate when one side doesn't think you should exist.

And the two ARE comparable if you say Israel is committing a genocide. But fine, you say they aren't comparable? I say your comparison to the holocaust is out of line and incorrect. Are you willing to rescind your previous comment?
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andriejj
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:05 pm

After looking up "rescind", yes, I rescind from the comment about Holocaust, which was ironic, and which you picked on for a surprisingly long time.

Now on the Hamas thing. They form a democratically elected government. Israel should respect that. And Hamas by itself wasn't created by evil, plotting muslims, it's a resultant of many factors, mainly the frustration and desperation of people who were forced to leave their 'motherland'. Same with Hezbollah.

Hamas is not the problem, Israel is the problem. It's a fully artificial country created and supported by the so-called 'Great Powers'. The historical foundations for a Jewish country are long and forgotten. I have full understanding for Palestinians who want that land back. Imagine the Dutch dominating the Manhattan (which they originally colonised) and trying to create some autonomy there. Wouldn't work, USA would go furious.

Having raised the topic of support, tell me, what do you gain from supporting Israel? A trustworthy ally? Sure as hell NOT. Iran is more trustworthy than Israel. Jews do what they want to do, they've proven it by many unagreed initiatives (mainly assaults). You've sold them some Patriots and other arms (on occasional prices), big deal. And what are the cons? Hatred of a dozen muslim countries and generally among the 'muslim world'. Does it really pay off? I don't think so.

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by sorrowd » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:17 am

The problem with clearing a large area/city of all people who support a particular organization that's hostile to you is pretty apparent. It's impossible.

If leaders of Israel want to clear out Hamas and stop the rocket attacks, they have to be content with civilian casualties. They also have to hope that the civilians recognize that Hamas is responsible for Israel's invasion - if a fly buzzes around and annoys you long enough, you'll swat it. Unfortunately, the tired, frustrated, and poor civilians don't recognize that - neither do the rest of the "Middle East" nations that criticize Israel's actions.

Do you know how much the Palestinian Authority pays a suicide bomber's family after he's martyred? 1,000,000 USD. They can do this because of private donations from wealthy people who support them, public aid from "Middle East" nations, and other sources of revenue. It all comes down to whose lives a man values more - those of his family who he may not be able to feed and care for, or those of Israeli citizens who he doesn't know and doesn't care about? He may not be a fanatical devotee to the destruction of Israel and ultranationalism, but if he's poor enough and frustrated enough...

The money the Palestinian Authority gets could definitely be better spent on infrastructure and societal needs. But Hamas, other radical groups, and some (or many) Palestinians have a different priority.

And the money Israel gets from the United States and other countries (okay, the United States) could definitely be better spent - they wouldn't need nukes (according to the IDF, these are "What nukes?") and planes and ships and guns if they had different priorities.

Those in the "Islamic world" who do not accept the legitimacy of Israel will have to accept them. But Israel will also have to accept the "Islamic world". They cannot maintain a perfect defense forever, and countries that continually brandish their firepower and threaten their neighbors can't last forever.

All sides will have to want peace before there will be peace...and it doesn't seem like Hamas or Olmert want peace. The appropriate reaction to long-range missile strikes made by cowardly extremists is not a full-scale invasion...but those missile strikes should never have been made. Neither side is in the right.

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by Kurogamon » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:55 pm

Sorrow's right. Both sides wronged each other and are now going at it with not much reason and too much emotion. Trying to clear out Hamas by force is an idiotic idea. It's not something that can be done when you have a group like that whose members might be hiding everywhere. Israel goes in, pewpews the Gaza strip with their holy-crap-unfair weapons, then what? They'll withdraw, and now Hamas has another reason to shoot more rockets.

Civilian casualties: Nobody likes them, but they happen. But Israel could at least handle the situation better, they could start by telling everyone EXACTLY why they're attacking Gaza. Nothing's going to get anywhere if they just try and take out as many militants as possible. Trying to reach an agreement or at least attempting to bargain with Hamas would have earned them a bit of international support, and might actually have solved the problem for longer than an attack.

Andriejj, great comparison for Israel's land. Everyone made a mistake there, trying to solve the problem as quickly as they can and not looking into the future. Israel's already under enough tension, they really don't need any more by invading the next country over as a show of force instead of attempting to negotiate. Something's gonna snap sooner or later.
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:38 am

andriejj wrote:After looking up "rescind", yes, I rescind from the comment about Holocaust, which was ironic, and which you picked on for a surprisingly long time.
Because like I told you a while ago that daring to compare anything that Jews do to the Holocaust is asking for an emotionally packed response. It's just not something you.
andriejj wrote:Now on the Hamas thing. They form a democratically elected government. Israel should respect that. And Hamas by itself wasn't created by evil, plotting muslims, it's a resultant of many factors, mainly the frustration and desperation of people who were forced to leave their 'motherland'. Same with Hezbollah.
Israel did respect that. Israel respected that by stopping their supplies to the Aza Strip because it was basically the Palestinians saying that they were ready to stop relying on Israel essentially. Think about it, if a government is supplying your country with food, power, and medical supplies and then you elected a party that is KNOWN to be associated with terrorists that attack the country supplying yours what do you think that foreign government will do? Do you expect them to be happy about that?

As for being forced to leave their 'motherland': In the war of '48 I'll admit there were a few isolated instances where Israel did clear out towns but it isn't a clear cut Israel was kicking out Palestinians it was more because the army that the Palestinians led was among the people and when Israel was trying to control the roads leading up to Jerusalem they had to clear out all possible hide outs for the enemy's army. However the majority of the Palestinians left because the surrounding Arab countries told the Palestinians to leave because they would get in the way and when the Jewish menace was wiped out they could return. Please note these are the same Arab countries that refuse to treat the Palestinian refugees in their own country as equals and force them to live in refugee camps when they could have easily been integrated into their society.

Also as for the original splitting of land by the British Mandate: The land being split up between the Palestinians and the Jews wasn't actually relocating people at all, in fact the only major area where Palestinians and Jews were close together was Jerusalem. Beyond Jerusalem Jewish and Palestinian settlements were pretty far apart and the land allocated to each of them wouldn't have been "kicking out" that many if any Palestinians from "their land" (I use quotations around their land because they had never previously owned it but they had been living in the area).
andriejj wrote:Hamas is not the problem, Israel is the problem. It's a fully artificial country created and supported by the so-called 'Great Powers'. The historical foundations for a Jewish country are long and forgotten. I have full understanding for Palestinians who want that land back. Imagine the Dutch dominating the Manhattan (which they originally colonised) and trying to create some autonomy there. Wouldn't work, USA would go furious.
While many agree that there is no historical foundation for a Jewish country in Israel I find it hard to believe that there isn't a historical foundation for a Jewish state. Jews have had problems where ever they go in the world one way or another. America is an exception but at the same it's not like America is a true safe haven for anyone all over it. The Holocaust accelerate the process but a Jewish state was considered a must with many Jews all over the world and obviously even the UN believed so.
andriejj wrote:Having raised the topic of support, tell me, what do you gain from supporting Israel? A trustworthy ally? Sure as hell NOT. Iran is more trustworthy than Israel. Jews do what they want to do, they've proven it by many unagreed initiatives (mainly assaults). You've sold them some Patriots and other arms (on occasional prices), big deal. And what are the cons? Hatred of a dozen muslim countries and generally among the 'muslim world'. Does it really pay off? I don't think so.
You don't know how Israel has contributed to the world have you? Israel has the highest ratio of engineers as well one of, if not the highest, ratio of noble peace prizes. Israel has made certain technologies that we all love a reality such as mobile phones and IM messaging. Now these are just scientific endeavors but Israel is also one of the first countries to always respond to a national disaster with medical supplies and man power.

What I don't understand is how you can talk about fairness til your face is blue and then turn around and then say that being allied to Arab countries like Iran which are clearly dictatorships and are willing to openly preach for the destruction of a whole people is just baffling.

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheLegendReborn » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:39 am

sorrowd wrote:The problem with clearing a large area/city of all people who support a particular organization that's hostile to you is pretty apparent. It's impossible.

If leaders of Israel want to clear out Hamas and stop the rocket attacks, they have to be content with civilian casualties. They also have to hope that the civilians recognize that Hamas is responsible for Israel's invasion - if a fly buzzes around and annoys you long enough, you'll swat it. Unfortunately, the tired, frustrated, and poor civilians don't recognize that - neither do the rest of the "Middle East" nations that criticize Israel's actions.
If this preverbal fly buzzed around any other country with an army you would except that country to also respond and aim to swap the fly except that country wouldn’t wait over 3 years. That country wouldn’t have had a unilateral withdrawal from the fly’s nest. That country wouldn’t have waited for a “cease fire” to end which was really just another unilateral action by Israel since Hamas never took action to have a cease fire.

And Israel does not have to be “content” with civilian deaths. Who the hell except a mad man would be content with an innocent person dying? But at the same time what kind of government with the ability to put an end to the daily terrorizing of it’s own city not do so? If Mexico starting sending rockets over the border hitting cities in Texas I would expect the states to go to mobilize much sooner than a period of 3 years.
sorrowd wrote:And the money Israel gets from the United States and other countries (okay, the United States) could definitely be better spent - they wouldn't need nukes (according to the IDF, these are "What nukes?") and planes and ships and guns if they had different priorities.
So it’s wrong for one of Israel’s priorities to be protecting her own people? Excuse me but I have no idea where this is coming from. Israel wouldn’t need such a strong army if many Arab countries and certain factions didn’t have the priorities they had.
sorrowd wrote:Those in the "Islamic world" who do not accept the legitimacy of Israel will have to accept them. But Israel will also have to accept the "Islamic world". They cannot maintain a perfect defense forever, and countries that continually brandish their firepower and threaten their neighbors can't last forever.

All sides will have to want peace before there will be peace...and it doesn't seem like Hamas or Olmert want peace. The appropriate reaction to long-range missile strikes made by cowardly extremists is not a full-scale invasion...but those missile strikes should never have been made. Neither side is in the right.
From what I can tell you are expecting Israel to dismantle her army or atleast a large portion of it and by doing so magically the whole Arab world will be agree to Israel existing. I’m sorry but I’m sure I love peace as much as you do but I can’t be disillusioned into not having something to fall back on when there are many hostile peoples ready to pounce if I’m not prepared. Much of Israel’s power lies in that her army is the best preemptive strike against a country’s attack in that no country will dare attack Israel head on. However this does nothing to prevent the usage of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah who hide amongst the people using them as human shields.

As for wanting peace Israel was worked her butt off trying to achieve peace but at the same time you can’t give 100% for peace in the state that Israel is in. To let one’s guard down in that situation is silly but at the same time Israel has offered all of the Aza Strip and the West Bank to the Palestinians and that was even turned down. Hell let’s look at how the Palestinians came into such a problem. When the UN was carving out the land that would be Palestine and Israel, Israel would be much smaller than she is now and Palestinians would have much more than just the West Bank and the Aza Strip but regardless of that they declared war the day that the UN voted Israel into becoming a nation.
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:15 am

Iran has a government it wants. It is radical, it might be unusual for the 'Western' world, but it's legitimate. And hey, show me any bad deeds by Iran. Words are one thing (most of them being misquoted), actions are another. Iran doesn't kill, doesn't invade, they never started a war. You can only disagree with their views, but you don't have any real accusations.

And what breeding engineers has to do with anything here? They'd breed them anyway, just not in their own country.

And to make things clear. Israel will stay and should stay. It's history, no chance and sense to undo it. But they shouldn't be surprised with the oppposition around and they should be much more peaceful. Get down from the high horse and normally talk with people. Without bringing up antisemitism and looking down upon muslim nations. It's funny how nationalist the Israelian government is while screaming about antisemites.

And why you got so on Sorrowd for saying Israel should drop making nukes and submarines? Nukes cost a hell lot of money, they are clearly offensive, they won't be ever used (or who knows, Jews are unpredictable). He didn't say they should decrease the soldier count. It's more the way they use their army. Was it really necessary to vandalize Liban?
(btw, if you can, tell me, did they give Liban some reasonable reparations? I'm just curious and don't know how it concluded)

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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by TheIrishPatriot » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:48 am

andriejj wrote: Jews do what they want to do, they've proven it by many unagreed initiatives (mainly assaults).
andriejj wrote: (or who knows, Jews are unpredictable).
>.> To state the obvious, shouldn't you be saying Israel? I'm not prepared to characterize an entire religion as stubborn and unpredictable. But that's just me.

My input, now that I've read more on the topic, here and in the newspaper:

Israel had a right to defend itself. Like Legend said, no other country would accept the rockets. Especially during a ceasefire. Civilian deaths do happen, but Israel IS proving that it wants Hamas, by sending messages to civilians and letting them go. Obviously, there have been problems, but I don't think this has much precedence in the last hundred years.

All I'ma sayin' for now.
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Re: Gaza strip being cleared out

Post by andriejj » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:04 pm

I'm often writing Jews, because Israeli or Israelians just doesn't sound right for me, plus it's affiliated to the land mainly, and they're a nation after all. It's also shorter. But yeah, the country name in those 2 cases would be more proper.

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