On the Topic of Homosexuality

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Hydrolisk
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Hydrolisk » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:32 pm

Flotsam wrote:Also, what about animals that regularly engage in homosexual behavior? Bonobo monkeys, for example. Are their entire species blasphemous against what nature intended? On a tangent, what about cars? Are they as nature intended? What about the houses we live in? Cities? Are these things "as nature intended"? I'd argue they are FAR less natural then a male being attracted to males, or female attracted to females.
Bonobo monkeys are very interesting. Although, I would counter by saying that homosexuality has become integrated into their society, probably during a more primitive stage for them. Yet, in fact, they may not even be truly homosexual. After reading a Wikipedia article on it, I would say that it is not homosexuality that is a part of their society, but sexual ACTIVITY. There is a vital difference. It's just like how some girls go 69 position just for a guy they like, but they might not be truly lesbian (although, I've never heard of guys going at it for a girl). But I don't approve of that either, because I think it's very immoral.

However, our own society has climbed to a very unstable point, and there is little room for a (whole) new development of psychological behaviour. If a large number of people suddenly started turning gay, there could be a high risk of civil/world war because of this (some people feel that strong about it. I don't.).

When I say "as nature intended," I often mean that nature intends to create a "perfect" race. However, this perfection would be extremely hard to achieve. And besides, I don't think people like it when (talking about humans now) mothers have sexual intercourse with their own sons/daughters and anyone of any age being able to also (I find that disgusting).

Houses and cities could be what nature had intended, as houses and cities can be classified as social and physical requirements (shelter, communities). And I don't think cars are what nature intended. They're more of a luxury, although they have become an important part of our society, since they help us communicate (mail!), travel (and migrate), and enables us to do more research on things like protecting the environment. However, at our species stage, I would regard homosexuality more as a serious flaw in development of mind because of how sexuality in our society takes more of a reproductive stance (yes, I'm aware some do it because it feels good and the couple love each other). Sexual activity between those of equal sex are often done by homosexuals or girls who "just wanna have fuuu---uuun." Sexual activity between homosexuals would be for love between homosexuals, so I would describe homosexual activity between homosexuals as unnatural. Besides, only a small fraction of humans are homosexual.

In light of the fact people CHOOSE to be this way, all I can say is: how can anybody choose that kind of life?
I would classify it as a mental or sexual disorder, or maybe even physical disorder, or emotional disorder. SOME kind of disorder!
But that's just me. What do the others think of what we've got so far (as a whole thread)?
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Evernite. » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:24 pm

Allow me to bid you my greetings; I noticed this sub-forum only this afternoon, and it made me interested after reading your different posts.

I'm pretty recent to these forums, as I only made a couple hero suggestions for Dusk's maps so far, but I would like to enter this intriguing debate. I will try to keep my attitude as polite as possible. ^^

My own point of view is that every human being should live his or her life to the fullest, pursuing happiness as a primary objective (for the human nature tends to seek pleasure). Certainly, some people obviously don't feel this "happiness" so many people talk about (I include myself in the lot), but for me, looking for it is already an initiative by itself. Everyday moments of joy are bits of the bigger picture and are here to sustain hopes and expectations. This is one of my motives, on which I cling unto, as an introduction to my post. Onto the discussion, now.

Homosexuality is indeed a subject of utter concern, and is, in my opinion, sublimated by today's medias. Why should it matter that this man is in a relationship with that man? If anything, it makes them happy, and seeing a smile on someone's face is, to me, stronger than any form of disgust. Of course, when my friend told me he was gay, I was first surprised; I avoided him for a few days, I needed to think. But after I reviewed all the times we spent together, good or bad, I realized how stupid my behavior was. His attitude hadn't changed at all, he was the same, he had only told me something that had shaken him to his very core once he'd discovered it. I came back to him, we talked things out, I apologized, and we still are friends. Although it's not always easy for him still, I am happy that he is happy, and I will fight to leave his smile on his face. Sorry for this rather personal outburst, but I thought I could share my experience.

@Vchip: I've hung around with you a little on BNet, and have always found you nice and fun to talk with. I'm sorry you had to suffer through all this harshness, and I hope things get better; unfortunately I can't give you any medical or scientific explanation to your situation, but be sure that you have my support if you need to talk. :P

As for the whole religious aspect of the thread, I would also like to share my opinion as objectively as I can. I have nothing against personal beliefs; on the contrary, I find it honorable to have a strong faith in some presence up there. I have given up on that long ago, delving into an atheist point of view. To me, there is no God, there are no coincidences, everything happens for a reason and good balances bad in a never-ending wheel of destiny; a cheesy picture, of course I don't see a wheel, but this is my conception! However, it is true that religion has always had a powerful place in the world of man, most of the time on a political aspect. This is what I dislike with the cult itself: when one man stands up and exploits the faith of a thousand people; who is he to lead them to their loss?

This doesn't always happen, of course, but seeing this causes a strong feeling of revolt within me. Using man's inner weaknesses such as hope (yes, it can be used against yourself) and naïveté. Let it be known that I have nothing about those traits; myself, I prefer to seem a fool and live as happy as I can than all-rational and logical and find wrongs in rights. Back to the topic, again, who are they to prevent people from being what they are? No one can fight against their nature, so why make them? Because of ancient texts written thousands of years ago?

I hope I did not hurt anyone with what I said; please let me know if I need to clarify some points in my post, or apologize if needed. ^^
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You receive but what you give."

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Homophobia and You

Post by Intoxicated Crayon » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:46 pm

Well, just recently, my friend was talking to me and some of my other friends. He's bisexual and he has to deal with all those evil remarks and such so I was wondering what you guys think? I'm naturally against homosexuality but I made a whole argument about it. I talk to my friend on the phone about, I think I made him cry :p.

[edit; this is pretty serious. Wondering it should be in the serious thread section :o... And another edit. Just saw a thread about it on page 2... Remove if you'd like x x.]

A human is naturally homophobic unless their parents are homosexual themselves.

A child is taught things and a child is taught girl + boy = good whilst boyboy and girlgril = bad. This is natural, it's embedded into your brain. The majority of children are taught this and Prop 8 was able to exaggerate this with kids which probably allowed it to pass.


An example you say? In chicken or dog fights, a dog/chicken is forced from birth to fight other dog/chickens! Just recently, 90+ chickens who were used in chicken fights were discovered. All of those chickens had to be killed because NO form of rehab would make them think other chickens are friends.


Back to homophobia, if you are straight and homophobic you will ridicule a person into converting however, it is very difficult to convert them. They will continually do this until they see results. This is the reason people assume the common sexuality, STRAIGHT. This all makes sense, it isn't because of ARROGANCE, naturally a human does not support homosexuality because they were taught to ridicule it. Since the dawn of time, homosexuality has been shunned because apparently a man and woman see the best in each other and deserve the right to join each other in holy matrimony.


Discrimination is based upon how you are taught. EVERYONE makes stereotypes. You see an african american, they are fast... They are also obsessed with watermelon and chicken... You see an asian, they are super smart... Yet they cannot drive to save their lives...

You see what I'm picking at? Others are just powerful enough OR weak enough to hold back comments of discrimination. In both cases, making comments or making no comments at all is a display of PRIDE. You are TOO STRONG to make a comment OR THEY ARE WORSE THAN YOU therefore YOU MAKE A COMMENT, Discrimination. This is displayed even when you don't notice it. Your face, words, and sound say it all. It only takes a sentence, a raised eyebrow or a cracked voice to detect the scent of Discrimination.



I should definitely be in speech in debate, fo sho. Own Julia/Zain/ all them xD
Let me know what you guys think, I r teh curious.
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Re: Homophobia and You

Post by vesuvan » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:49 am

I'm naturally against homosexuality but I made a whole argument about it. I talk to my friend on the phone about, I think I made him cry :p.
Dude, that's some hard stuff. No big thing he cried when he's loving men and all. You know? you gotta tell those queens broseph!
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Re: Homophobia and You

Post by andriejj » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:37 am

Well, if they do it quietly, don't go on streets for parades and force me to look at the ugly sight of men dressed up in tight pink clothes, kissing each other and acting abnormal, they don't go to TV stirring people's minds that homosexualism is normal (it's a deviation, twinking accept that), I'm ok with that. Have your homosexual relationships, enjoy them, but don't force others to accept that, don't shake your head with embarrassment over how we are homophobic and medieval, don't ask for child adoption.

But with the course of things, I'm afraid that in 50 years kids in schools will be taught that homosexualism is something natural and should be thoroughly accepted and homosexual relationships are equal to their heterosexual counterparts. It's not natural. Natural = man + woman.

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Re: Homophobia and You

Post by TheIrishPatriot » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:41 am

http://www.valor-zeal.org/forum/viewtop ... f=13&t=271 , but I see you got it already.

I forget what I wrote in there. Probably more aggresive. But I'll just say that I don't think it's natural, but I have bisexual friends, and I treat them just like everybody else.
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by shalnath » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:18 am

Merged with the other topic.
"Within every world, there are cultures, within every culture, there are groups, within every group, there are leaders. These leaders are not truly chosen, they are destined, it is their fate to lead, and it is this fate that drives them. Souls yearn to be driven, they in themselves can not direct, however, these leaders are predetermined, by whatever means, to guide the wills and mend the errors of these wandering souls. A forest, cold, cured, flawless, meticulous, and fearful, what drives it, what keeps the balance? The inner beings of all the co-existant creatures swarm together, and every one is guided by another, in more a cycle, then a hierarchy. The eyes of a forest are always watching and guiding, yet the sun never sets on the forest, and it never shall." ~ The Chaos Theory

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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by vesuvan » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:12 pm

Well, if they do it quietly, don't go on streets for parades and force me to look at the ugly sight of men dressed up in tight pink clothes, kissing each other and acting abnormal,
Straight people kiss in public and wear ridiculous cloths all the time. The only disctinction you make is that you think it's ugly, but your opinion is not valuable.
they don't go to TV stirring people's minds that homosexualism is normal (it's a deviation, twinking accept that),
Heterosexualism[SP] is a deviation from homosexuality, what is your point?
I'm ok with that. Have your homosexual relationships, enjoy them, but don't force others to accept that,
I don't accept the fact that you have a red avatar.

You feel that? It's the feeling of not giving a shit.
don't shake your head with embarrassment over how we are homophobic and medieval,
Hey red avatar boy, I'm not going to stop harassing you until you agree with my opinion.

Notice how your eyes immediately roll? Stop rolling your eyes over my opinion.
don't ask for child adoption.
Shouldn't they not have to? Single adults can adopt children, as can unmarried couples. You don't see people asking inane questions about adoption restrictions like "I'm left-handed, can I still adopt?", "On an internet forum, I have a red avatar, can I still adopt?" or "I'm wearing wool socks, can I still adopt?", because they are completely inconsequential.
Natural = man + woman.
Natural = obsidian shard and tea tree root.
Unnatural = scalpel and sterilization

Natural = horse
Unnatural = car

Natural = Dying to diseases
Unnatural = Not dying to diseases

Natural = counting on your fingers and toes
Unnatural = computer

Natural = At the age of twenty-five having all your teeth horribly disfigured by wisdom teeth
Unnatural = dentistry

I'll pick unnatural thank you.
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by andriejj » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:42 pm

Going into scientifistic approach isn't the way to go here. It's mostly culture, morals, tradition, etc., so try to discuss instead of making quasi-scientific deductions.

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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:40 pm

I'm with Vesuvan here. I don't think that rights should be governed by what we consider 'natural' or 'unnatural.' I believe that we should encourage people to be themselves, and so long as it's not inhibiting anyone elses rights, it shouldn't be disallowed.
  • I agree that a gay couple saddling up to a straight man and hitting on him is wrong, it inhibits the straight man's right to privacy and comfort.
  • I disagree that we should be appalled or prejudiced against the gay couple that walks down the street holding hands or kissing each other. That is their freedom, their right; I respect that thoroughly.
That's really all I can say on the matter.
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andriejj
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by andriejj » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:03 pm

Vesuvan misunderstood me and intentionally or unintentionally misinterpreted my post. I were talking about gay parades, not homosexual couples kissing or holding hands on the street in the manner other couples do. Those parades, frankly, are just disgusting and not any better than other forms of exhibitionism. If you haven't seen one, you're a happy person. I can't see how such events help them in anything.

To make my statement clear. I'm against the homosexual lobby, not the ordinary homosexuals.

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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Cold Phoenix » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:41 pm

It's not that it's wrong. It's that society perceives it as wrong. A lot of it has to do with the influence of religion, forcing people to adopt the church's opinions. Kids often preach the opinions of their parents, and will probably have grow up with similar opinions because when you don't argue you get 'more caring'. Humans are also disturbed/afraid of people who are different, this is one of the primary kids are made fun of for not being 'normal' or not conforming. Since they aren't like them they think they're 'weird' or 'wrong'.

I think we as people need to stop hindering the species. We got over* racism (*Many people accept people of different backgrounds now) and we need to get over this too. We don't gain anything from oppressing a group of people who are different, there is seriously NO POINT.

On the topic of natural and unnatural. I don't know where people come up with unnatural since everything is more or less natural. My watch is natural, it's natural for humans to create things. If we went and killed 900 killer whales it would be natural. It may damage the ecosystem but it's still natural.
Your move.

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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by vesuvan » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:02 pm

Vesuvan misunderstood me
You remind me of a pet peeve I had among my peers, who would constantly claim that a program isn't working correctly. I had to remind them that the program was doing exactly what it is supposed to do, and the user was just creating garbage input for it.

I understood your post perfectly. If you wanted me to interpret it differently, you should have chosen different words.

To say that gay parades are wrong begets the question, is homosexuality a topic that is forbidden to be spoken of, or are homosexuals not allowed to parade regardless of the theme?

You speaking of homosexuality herein proves you either do believe homosexuality is not an obscene topic, or that your set of beliefs isn't coherent at all. The only possibility remaining is that you think gays shouldn't be allowed to speak in public.

These are not strawmen, they are the immediate and inescapable consequences of your statement.
frankly, are just disgusting and not any better than other forms of exhibitionism.
I don't know where you live and what legal definition they have of exhibitionism, but the gay parade I saw did not involve any nudity, sexual acts, or speech not protected by their rights.
To make my statement clear. I'm against the homosexual lobby, not the ordinary homosexuals.
So you support homosexuals, but under the condition that they do not support themselves. I don't suppose they should depend on you to stand up for their rights?
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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by andriejj » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:19 am

It's really hard to talk with you, it's not your attitude, it's just that we're from 2 very different countries, and the situation here and there is totally different. The homosexuals themselves in Poland are embarassed with the people that are commonly 'understood' as their representatives. Gay parades in your country are mild and not provocative? Nice, but Polish parades take pattern from the Berlin orgyparade. That's my very personal opinion. If they present themselves as lusting sex-machines, then they shouldn't be surprised that there's some opposition, especially in a 90% catholic country which is Poland.

As for being catholic. The faith clearly forbids this kind of relationship. You can say that the faith is intolerent, but you can also say that homosexuals are intolerant, because they disrespect a deeply rooted religious tradition. Poland's a rather mild example, look at the arab states.
You remind me of a pet peeve I had among my peers, who would constantly claim that a program isn't working correctly. I had to remind them that the program was doing exactly what it is supposed to do, and the user was just creating garbage input for it.
Stop nitpicking. I refered only to the statement copied by Dusk, that I supposedly don't want homosexual couples to hold their hands together in public. That was the misunderstoodment, nothing more, sorry, no need for faultfinding.

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Re: On the Topic of Homosexuality

Post by Deschain » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:13 am

Vesuvan, go watch Death Camp of Tolerance. There is a difference between tolerance and acceptance.

I somewhat understand what andriejj wants to say. Here in Serbia, an Ortodox Christian country, homosexuality is on a same level of social level as consensual incest between brother-sister siblings (there are no legal consequences only social ones).
That being said no one should be forced to endure any kind of homosexual behavior that he/she wouldn't normally endure in an analogous heterosexual form.
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