Aos Theory-Crafting

[Sunken_Field]

Hey, I'm considering making an AoS, but I wanted to do something new with the abilities. So I came up with the not exactly original idea of making every spell (and every one of its factors) be affected by the caster's attributes.

To illustrate, a simple example:

Level 1 Skill:
Shockwave

• Releases a stunning shockwave in the target direction, that moves for 2 seconds. The shockwave deals 5*Intelligence, stuns for 0.25*Strength, and flies at a speed of 15*Agility.

So this spell's damage is affected by intelligence (Good), its stun duration is affected by strength (Good), but wait its speed is affected by agility?! That doesn't seem too useful... but wait, because the shockwave moves forward for 2 seconds, the speed of the shockwave actually dictates its range.

*Note* To ensure Flexibility in Hero Builds, There are no Primary Attributes in the AoS

With spells being totally based on attributes, items become much cooler. For example, a simple item like:

Level 1 Skill:
Slippers of Agility

• Gives the wearer +3 to agility.

Becomes much much cooler. Because adding to agility would in turn affect each of the carrier's spells. (Would increase the speed/range of the shockwave ability above.)

Along with spells like Shockwave (above), there would be disable spells like:

Level 1 Skill:
Crippling Vines

• Subtracts 20 agility from the target.

Infact, if I actually made a spell like Shockwave in the game, I would probably make it subtract attributes instead of stunning. I'm also considering making spells like this, also based off of the caster's attributes, so instead of taking away 20 agility, it would take away 5*Intelligence agility. (Could get too complicated though...)

Imagine, if instead of a spell casting slow on the targets, it would just subtract agility. Or instead of silencing a target, it would 1/2 the target's intelligence.

What I'm getting at, is that there would be no buffs/debuffs in the game.(In the original sense.) All buffs would increase the target's attributes, and all debuffs would decrease the target's attributes.

Another factor in my AoS, would be that every hero starts with all of his/her's abilities at level 1. This would make fights in the early game just as epic as in the later game. However, the abilities wouldn't be super powerful at the beginning of the game, due to everyone's stats being low.

The final factor in my head right now, is (in order to have hero customization and progression not solely based on items) to have every hero gain 5 stats every level, and the player can dictate where the stats go. (Into agility, intelligence, or strength.) Want to make a complete nuker? You should probably increase your intelligence. Is the enemy hero really good at dodging your spells? Choose to spend your points in agility.

The only problem I see with this idea, is that with buffs/debuffs, only affecting stats, they wouldn't affect creeps. (Because creeps aren't heroes, therefore they have no stats.) I guess I could make this a hero arena or something, but I really enjoy AoS's and making one with this concept seems like a very cool idea. My fall back idea is to make the map a "Capture the Flag" map, with only heroes on each team.

Anyways, Suggestions/Impressions?

[Phox]

The problem with stat based spells is that it becomes incredibly difficult to tell exactly what each spell does. For example, without calculating, I can't tell how much damage it does, how far it goes, or how long it stuns. That's a major problem for me.

[Rising_Dusk]

ToB O fell into that trap... And they're so certain that it'll be an improvement.
Sans the art, N will always be so much better than O, even with so many people working on it.

[Sunken_Field]

I guess I could simplify the tooltips to just "The speed of the shockwave increases with agility" but then you wouldn't know how much agility affects the speed of the spell.

[Phox]

That makes it even worse, though. The problem is not the tooltips looking over-complex. The problem is that it's hard to tell how much damage, etc. the spell does.

[Sunken_Field]

Isn't that the same for condition durations in DoE though? When I'm casting a spell in that game, I don't think "Yes this will silence for (5*1.33)*1.50 seconds. I think because of the items I have, this will silence for longer.

I don't think I could solve the problem short of making a dynamic tooltip system (not sure if that's realistically possible) or having a crude solution like "-S" in Eota (I seriously, seriously don't want to do that!)

[Rising_Dusk]

The thing is, though, you know roughly what 33% of 10 seconds feels like in DoE. If you stun a unit for 2 seconds + 0.1 seconds for each point of intelligence you have, you can't quite gauge that offhand. I know I can't. That's the biggest difference between what you're proposing and how DoE works already.

[Sunken_Field]

Yes, I guess due to the fact that the condition's base durations are static, and the caster's attributes are dynamic, that would be a problem... Any suggestions on how to fix that?

[pandamanar]

The Zedena Wars has implemented skills that are effected with the hero's stats. (just so you know)

[Rising_Dusk]

As did EotA way before the Zedena Wars had even been conceived in that person's skull. It is terrible in Zedena Wars primarily because of how easily abused it all was. I've yet to see a map implement attributes to great effect, there's so much that can be done with it that have yet to be thought up by mapmakers.

[Sunken_Field]

Link to Zedena Wars please?

[Rising_Dusk]

http://www.epicwar.com
Do a search.

[andriejj]

That sounds so much like EotA:T.

[Rising_Dusk]

every hero gain 5 stats every level, and the player can dictate where the stats go.

Bleh, eliminates half of the whole point of having individual heroes at all, might as well make the same hero with different model options.

there would be no buffs/debuffs in the game.

Cute, but limits your spell options a bit.

every hero starts with all of his/her's abilities at level 1

Of course, if you're going to do it that way you should go the full nine yards. AotZ 3.00 has a similar mechanic, though you still start with one skill point to enhance an ability of your choice, that way there's still a strong sense of hero builds. If you don't give people that starting skill point, you'd be surprised how much you're hurting the heroes!

I still disagree with the choice to base everything on attribute. Flat numbers are so much more intuitive and you can always boost them in other ways. What keeps you from just having items/abilities/etc. that "Boost spell damage by X%"?

I should stop talking, giving a little too much away. xD

[andriejj]

The standard 3 stats are good as they are. Adding secondary stats that make some sense... would make sense? ^^

So, for example:
Spirit: +2% physical damage reduction, -1% magic damage reduction

Double-edge, lal. But it shouldn't be that all heroes select from the same secondary attributes, each hero should have his own set. By own set, I mean X secondary attributes from the total base of Y. Spirit example could be for some ghost or arcane heroes, but a berseker. or some wtf tank hero wouldn't be able to pick it.