v1.11b Discussion

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2-P
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by 2-P » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:20 am

Hrm, I'll try to keep it short.

Items!
The "item situation" in DoE has been bothering me for months now but I couldn't be bothered to post anything about it, so I guess I'll just say something now for the sake of getting it off my mind harhar.
Well not all items, actually the high faction items only. I always saw the 8/10/12 Fac items as.... "solid and general" boost for every hero. You know, they were the all-around items that were equally useful for everyone. And the 3 Fac items were the ones that gave more specific boosts that were only really helpful to a few heroes.
But since 1.09(?) those "hero specific" items started to appear as high Fac items (rendabi is the first that comes to my mind), being (almost) completely useless for certain heroes but "greatly" enhancing a few other heroes. That's also the point where the use of 3 fac items went straight downhill, simply because there were better/stronger alternatives now. So removing them completely makes sense, I see that now.

Those "all-around" items are still there, like Crown or WhiteWater, but they're hardly used afaik. It's rare that I see someone getting them, because the new items are usually more useful (e.g why increase your burn duration by 25% if you can double the damage? And doe has a very offensive gameplay and the time it takes to kill another hero is getting less and less in my eyes, so most don't bother about a condition reduction or other defensive items). I don't know what's planned for the future or the intention was, a few and halfway equal amount of strong items for everyone? It feels so... random right now.
I also find those kind of items to be insanely hard to balance, due to the amazingly multifaceted condition interaction in the map. I dunno... in that regard I just don't see DoE to be balanced in any way at the moment.

I don't want to scream "ITEMS SUCK REMOVE PLOX", it's just my personal opinion anyway and I've always been biased towards items in aos maps. It's just that for me; something that got me into playing the map in the first place turned into something that makes me not want to play it any longer.
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:17 am

It's kind of tough responding to something like that, but I'll be frank; I don't agree with you at all.
Anyways, to avoid quoteraping you or something silly, I'll just post my own thoughts.

Multiple heroes can benefit from any of the items. Additionally, something unknown to other maps, the items themselves interact with eachother in unique and clever ways. The very continuity of the items makes them useful in unison, creating item builds that really are builds as opposed to just a bunch of effects thrown together. Things like the Shard work only on heroes with burn or bleed, but... Thanks to the Bleeder and the Firebrand, those conditions are available to almost any hero! And those items benefit from the Shard too! Another classic example is the boots of blinding speed and the optic amulet. Wow, suddenly everyone can take advantage of the blind immunity by getting 15% movement out of it! These sorts of things are, to me, what make DoE items actually cool. It's not like in other maps, it's its own beast. That tickles me every time I use them to some greater effect.

I've carefully calibrated the items so as to not change the way a hero works, but at the same time be useful for as vast a range of heroes as possible. I will not release an item that is only useful on one hero for instance, and I invite you to find a single of the 8F items that matches that description. Convince me of it, and I'll happily replace it.

Additionally and finally, I think, the defensive items are not forgotten. Ignoring the WWP, which people apparently think sucks, the defensive items are pretty commonly used. I find them extremely helpful myself and unless I'm a stick figure hero like Atrius, I always find myself getting at least one of them in a game. Also, Crown gets used all of the time, even more so now that the +25%/-33% 3F items are gone.

Speaking of those 3F items, they really did suck. Let's face it, those were items that were only valuable on specific heroes. I mean, who ever actually bought the Spined Gloves for maim? I sure as heck didn't! Come now, PP, if anything, I've made the items more widely valuable, more widely accessible, and more widely interactive. I simply cannot see a flaw in that sort of implementation. Of course, your opinion is your own, but this is mine. :)
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by Deschain » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:32 pm

Dusk has a way to make everything sound reasonable. But one point still remains... Potions.
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by 2-P » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:49 pm

Of course there are no items that are only for a single hero. And I never said that the items are boring or anything, the way they enhance the heroes is definitely cool.
I mean, Atrius catching you because sandstorm suddenly cripples you, firewall dealing twice the amount of damage, Glyphe running around with a ruin aura, Rikter eating Aurea because he's immune to blind... these are the kind of things where I ask myself "was that necessary?".

Yeah lol many of the 3 Fac items were close to useless. And sure, the new items don't give +50 dmg, 20 agi and 100% attack speed. I agree with you that they are more widely accessible and interactive compared to the old 3 Fac items, but I don't care about all the innovation and wit in the moment their influence becomes too large and the items just passed a mark where I have to say "No".
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by Rising_Dusk » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:09 pm

2-P wrote:I mean, Atrius catching you because sandstorm suddenly cripples you, firewall dealing twice the amount of damage, Glyphe running around with a ruin aura, Rikter eating Aurea because he's immune to blind... these are the kind of things where I ask myself "was that necessary?".
What about you avoiding Atrius' newfound cripple with that well-timed purity potion or Philo Stone use? What about turning that 2x damage burn AK is using against you down to 24DPS with a carapace? What about Aurea rocking the crap out of Rikter with a 6 second knockdown thanks to Brickwelder? These are the kinds of things where I say "The items are available to everyone, and anything can be countered in numerous ways. If one hero has 24F and you have 0F, should not the 24F hero have the advantage? If he didn't, the items would be worthless to begin with!"

I think the items are finally to a point where I can say "Yes, these items impact gameplay sufficiently and do things that can truly be done in no other map." Their influence is large, as it should be, but a skilled player can still surpass it all with the proper talent.

Outside of potions, which people are complaining about in that thread I'm ignoring, I don't see any problems at all.
Sorry you disagree. :<
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by Rising_Dusk » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:15 am

Does anyone remember if I was working on an update? I can't for the life of me remember. If so, I'll get it out this weekend because it's the beginning of spring break.
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by Phox » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:50 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:Does anyone remember if I was working on an update? I can't for the life of me remember. If so, I'll get it out this weekend because it's the beginning of spring break.
I don't remember. Was there stuff that really needed updating?

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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by SetaSoujirou » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:54 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:Does anyone remember if I was working on an update? I can't for the life of me remember. If so, I'll get it out this weekend because it's the beginning of spring break.
Siev's is broken, not sure if you ever fixed that.
Also, philosopher's stone will not protect you from sandstorm-cripple as the sandstorm blind will activate it before the cripple.
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by Rising_Dusk » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:58 pm

Your latter point isn't a bug. That's how Philo's Stone works. (Just like it only protects against the first condition of Wrath, for instance) There probably was a fix version 1.11c regardless for other stuff, though.
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by SetaSoujirou » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:04 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote: What about you avoiding Atrius' newfound cripple with that well-timed purity potion or Philo Stone use?
Wasn't a bug report.
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by Rising_Dusk » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:57 pm

Shows how much opportunity I've had to actually play the map, huh?
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by VZManticoran » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:08 am

Btw, just like to point out that Heart of Rendabi and Splinter Cell is NASTY. 30 damage in area for every unit in the area for 10 seconds...
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by Rising_Dusk » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:11 am

Uh huh.
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by Kurogamon » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:59 pm

Basic item spam seems to work just as well now with the upgrade kits. I love how they can give you so much choice with so few items. Should I get an inventory full of armor? How about with a Brickwelder? Be ghost rider with as many boots as you want and still have armor? Then there's Jhita with +120%AS...

Items are fine as they are atm. (Almost)Everything can be counteracted with sufficient skill. There aren't really any items that just plain out boost your health/damage/offense/defense in the way some other itemfest AoSs' items do. There's just small boosts that can be recombined and reused to produce great effects. Dis with Last Rites, blinding boots, and Phylactery can fight forever at level 18 and never run out of anything, while a few well-placed ranged shots before Dis has a chance to get anything off will still kill him effectively.

I think that is the brilliance of DoE. Not the skill required, not the heroes, but how you have so much choice with interaction with items that don't overpower the game's core elements, yet make everything so much more fun.
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Re: v1.11b Discussion

Post by Scarlet » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:57 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:Does anyone remember if I was working on an update? I can't for the life of me remember. If so, I'll get it out this weekend because it's the beginning of spring break.
You were, unless something changed since last we spoke. oO

EDIT: Not sure if you know this yet or not, but Black Hole Sun's text in the buff bar is wrong. Still the old one, says it keeps Tristan permanently invisible.

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