Some thoughts about some stuff

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Oxygen
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Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Oxygen » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:21 am

first of all, I'd like to point out that I find the latest version of doe to be satisfying, and though I haven't had (or taken) the time to play it in depth (yet), it's safe to affirm t hat it's going the right way.

without any further wait, I feel that it would be worth it to quickly write down a little review/suggestions/ideas of the heroes I get the occasion to play (and I'll be trying to hit some variety as I play)

general

hallowed order's merchants aren't accompanied by a fountain (unlike bane) which isn't really a big deal, but for the sake of even-ness, I believe they should be together...

...still concerning merchants, I think they could use a little selection range increase, no biggie once again, but I feel that going on a consumption spree would be a little smoother

verte

verte stands very strong and useful, as always, though I feel could use a little oomph! somewhere along the condition application; perhaps that deceiting a unit could mute nearby foes? in addition, would it feel wrong to also be able to use deceit on friendly units?

aurea

very solid as well, though I feel may be a little too strong against creeps. here we could see upheav' changed to physical damage, which would effectively serve a triple purpose; increase damage interaction through ruin, increase interaction through a source of physical damage (other than her attack; ash arrows don't count!) and feel less powerful against creeps. Plus, I can see how getting smashed by rocks is physical ;]

exurooo

parabolla! weak game start, very strong mid game, moderate end game; I think that the issue lies in the way that gluttony scales as well as envy. 80/120/160/200/240, is that what it is? the few first levels feel rather week in contrast with the nukes from other caster heroes, and has a fairly big requirement for it to land. The horrible glyphe kept getting caught by gluts ever since level 1 through 5, yet his own leveling and regeneration was negating the damage it dealt. As soon as I got wrath, I scored a kill ;3 there are a few things that I could see happening, really.

1- Gluttony's scaling could be changed, or even lose a second or two of cooldown (it is one of the lowest, dps wise, caster main nuke!)
2- Pride could see a little damage increase happen; right now it's 40/60/80/100/120; that is barely worth upgrading (and only really happens because the passive is-- well, I'll get to it. In addition, pride is most often deliberately not-really-aimed more of a gap closer than a damage ability, or even, just used to run away, by giving it some damage increase, there would be a better incentive to a) try to aim it properly and b) use it offensively instead of simply keeping it to run away (which is boring, mind you)
3- Passive could see a +flat bonus +% type increase, rather than a flat % increase. Right now, it's 8/11/14/17/20, at on a level 1 gluttony, 8% is what, 6 damage? of course that becomes a little more significant end game (20% of 240 is 50ish damage, of course it benefits pride (not much) and your attacks, shh!) errhm... I'd like to see it being somewhere along the +8, 2%, +12, 4%, +14, 6%, +18, 8%, +22, 10%; don't forget that you actually have to give up a third spell for this passive, and this other spell could possibly be doing much more than this damage (see: maltheron and some others) and so, it Should be fairly significant

Pick one!

all for now

edit I

arro

the ability to permanently burn players and creeps is amazingly strong (and fun!) so I really don't want to see scorched earth change. we've had this thread up for a while now, but I thought I'd try to be more specifics about my thoughts on how-to-make sir arro more interractive and interesting;

fireball: baby, this thing hurts. I often find myself saying, Oh shit, that shouldn't have hit; done so much damage, etc. so I though, well, why not reward a direct hit? (dusk is aware of the idea); here's the idea. Fireball's damage is divided into two parts: magickal and physical. The explosion is magickal, and the direct hit is physical. The direct hit ruins, and deals more damage. Here's an example, 200 magickal damage and 140 physical. Direct hit: total damage, 340. Adjacent hit (not centered, but explosion): 200 damage. This would give more incentive to very properly hit the fireball, and perhaps make it a little less ridiculous against massed creeps.

In addition, heat should become physical damage (more interraction with items; works with fireball's ruin) and cause damaging conditions on foes around arro to not fade away...

New shard/bleeder arro build, anyone? Hell yes!

edit II

vela

I haven't played her in a long time, but had a pretty nifty idea; what's the cooldown on rigor? 2 seconds? perfect, keep it that way, though I feel the bleed is pretty long at level 1;... perhaps have it extend bleed by X, instead of a flat 20?

Here it comes:

Bone prison, as it breaks, could deal physical damage to and maim foes directly OUTSIDE the prison. This would make the spell actually useful against creeps (one of the requirements of doe, mind you =D ) and, well, synergize with ruin. Hell, you could even tranversal a bone close to someone as the prison's about to break to deal damage.

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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:50 am

Oxygen wrote:in addition, would it feel wrong to also be able to use deceit on friendly units?
This is a good point. I guess it wouldn't hurt to enable that, it'd still be like deceiving the poor baneite into listening to Vert instead of the Bane. I'll probably add that in the next version.
Oxygen wrote:here we could see upheav' changed to physical damage, which would effectively serve a triple purpose; increase damage interaction through ruin, increase interaction through a source of physical damage (other than her attack; ash arrows don't count!) and feel less powerful against creeps. Plus, I can see how getting smashed by rocks is physical ;]
Hrm, yes, giving her both types of damage could create some interesting item builds as well as work with the ruin. (Even though she doesn't cause it) The note about it weakening a bit versus creeps that aren't ruined is a good point, though, since she really does instakill most waves. (Pretty much the same as Malth, though) I will think about this one, but it's a good idea.
Oxygen wrote:Gluttony's scaling could be changed, or even lose a second or two of cooldown (it is one of the lowest, dps wise, caster main nuke!)
Hrm, well, Vert's Abolish also starts at 80 damage. I really don't want these spells to turn into weapons that make any and every hero flee at the first hit at level 1. I mean, let me think. Dis has 360 life at L1 and Glyphe (top Order life hero) has 700 at L1. 80 damage is 2/9 of Dis' life and a little over 1/10 of Glyphe's, so maybe it could deal with a little increase to ~120 at L1 and then have it scale to the same end result.
Oxygen wrote:Pride could see a little damage increase happen; right now it's 40/60/80/100/120; that is barely worth upgrading (and only really happens because the passive is-- well, I'll get to it. In addition, pride is most often deliberately not-really-aimed more of a gap closer than a damage ability, or even, just used to run away, by giving it some damage increase, there would be a better incentive to a) try to aim it properly and b) use it offensively instead of simply keeping it to run away (which is boring, mind you)
Pride is also on a very cheap cooldown, so giving it more damage would really make a big impact on its net DPS. I find that the best Exuro players hit with Pride and follow with an around-self Gluttony for a 400 net damage gain to a struck hero. That was kind of the goal I was going for in making it cap out at 120 and start at 40.

I think the better solution is to make range increase with level as well.
Oxygen wrote:Passive could see a +flat bonus +% type increase, rather than a flat % increase. Right now, it's 8/11/14/17/20, at on a level 1 gluttony, 8% is what, 6 damage? of course that becomes a little more significant end game (20% of 240 is 50ish damage, of course it benefits pride (not much) and your attacks, shh!) errhm... I'd like to see it being somewhere along the +8, 2%, +12, 4%, +14, 6%, +18, 8%, +22, 10%; don't forget that you actually have to give up a third spell for this passive, and this other spell could possibly be doing much more than this damage (see: maltheron and some others) and so, it Should be fairly significant
Yes, this is a good point. The problem is not the 8%, but that the damage you deal is also much lower at early levels. So 8% of 80 is underwhelming, but 20% of 240 is a big deal. (Putting it at 288 damage) I also honestly feel that it may be a little too close to The Black Lantern for my tastes. (Increasing magickal damage dealt, but Envy as an aura that requires a condition) Not really sure, here.

PS: I've missed the critique.
"I'll come to Florida one day and make you look like a damn princess." ~Hep

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Oxygen
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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Oxygen » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:38 pm

Well, yes, a flat amount is what lantern has, but in the end, all %'s or flat damage wind up just being damage. Okay, sure, they're similar. The heroes really aren't, though, and similar passives still translate into different abilities.

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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:47 pm

They just feel the same, though. I feel like Exuro really shouldn't have another active, but that if he has a passive it should be more interactive than his aura is now.
Oxygen wrote:Bone prison, as it breaks, could deal physical damage to and maim foes directly OUTSIDE the prison. This would make the spell actually useful against creeps (one of the requirements of doe, mind you =D ) and, well, synergize with ruin. Hell, you could even tranversal a bone close to someone as the prison's about to break to deal damage.
While it's true that creeps play a big role in the game, it's not true that every spell must be useful against creeps. If that were the case, Tristan would be an awful hero. (He has 0 crowd control capacity) I used to feel that prison should only be castable on enemy heroes, but eventually decided while making her that it should be castable on units for distracting them or stopping them for a few crucial seconds.

I definitely am not a fan of prison breaking resulting in any sort of damage. She's not a true, blue killer. She's a technical hero, and taking her away from that by giving her extra damage potential is no good.
Oxygen wrote:In addition, heat should become physical damage (more interraction with items; works with fireball's ruin) and cause damaging conditions on foes around arro to not fade away...
I am still unsure if I appreciate the "no damage condition ending" stuff you keep talking about. It would nullify the entire point of leveling up Scorched Earth, since you'd just keep it at level 1 and stay close to them to drag out the duration. Heat doing physical damage is also kind of lame because the biggest item interaction there is Firebrand which he doesn't need. Bleeder would work, but I feel that the ruin on HoR and feedback on Urn provides a better net bonus.

I have said it before, but I like the Fireball suggestion. I am not so sure if splitting the damage types is smart, because the ruin it applies wouldn't be considered for the damage it just dealt, so it'd probably work out being weaker in the end if any portion of the damage were physical. (I could make it factor the ruin, but that is terribly lame. It's like Firebrand + Shockwave guaranteeing knockdown) I like the staggered AOE damage, but I really am not so sure about making a chunk of it physical.
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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Oxygen » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:18 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:They just feel the same, though. I feel like Exuro really shouldn't have another active, but that if he has a passive it should be more interactive than his aura is now.
Exuro's magickal damage is increased by X(%?) for every condition on nearby foes.

-Nice team synergy
-Good incentive for hitting as many things as possible with pride
-Cool synergy with wrath

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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Oxygen » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:25 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote: I am still unsure if I appreciate the "no damage condition ending" stuff you keep talking about. It would nullify the entire point of leveling up Scorched Earth, since you'd just keep it at level 1 and stay close to them to drag out the duration. Heat doing physical damage is also kind of lame because the biggest item interaction there is Firebrand which he doesn't need. Bleeder would work, but I feel that the ruin on HoR and feedback on Urn provides a better net bonus.
ah, but, leveling heat would increase it's area of effect, such that the first levels makes it hard to keep up (100/200/300/400/500); heat doing physical damage would synergize with fireball's new ruining effect
Rising_Dusk wrote:I have said it before, but I like the Fireball suggestion. I am not so sure if splitting the damage types is smart, because the ruin it applies wouldn't be considered for the damage it just dealt, so it'd probably work out being weaker in the end if any portion of the damage were physical. (I could make it factor the ruin, but that is terribly lame. It's like Firebrand + Shockwave guaranteeing knockdown) I like the staggered AOE damage, but I really am not so sure about making a chunk of it physical.
I don't remember firebrand and shockwave guaranteeing a kd, though that might have changed? anyway... Yeah, I guess just having a direct hit inflict the ruin is just fine

edit: can prison even distract creeps? should it get a 0-0 attack?

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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:48 pm

Oxygen wrote:edit: can prison even distract creeps? should it get a 0-0 attack?
Nah. It distracts the creep(s) inside of it, though, because they can't move. Works great on golems/knights.
Oxygen wrote:I don't remember firebrand and shockwave guaranteeing a kd, though that might have changed?
Was a bug in 1.14 that was fixed later.
Oxygen wrote:ah, but, leveling heat would increase it's area of effect, such that the first levels makes it hard to keep up (100/200/300/400/500); heat doing physical damage would synergize with fireball's new ruining effect
It seems really useless at L1 because it requires you keep too close to enemies and AK won't be overloading on booties as a caster. Meanwhile, at max level, it seems too easy to maintain. Anyways, you could still get L5 Heat and L1 Scorched Earth and be fine without ever putting another point in SE.

I really don't think I am a fan of this "damaging conditions cannot end" stuff.
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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Oxygen » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:40 pm

Could just keep it as it currently is but have it increase damage taken from conditions (new interaction with bleed), then

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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:52 pm

That was my original suggestion in that thread (minus bleed interaction, though). I think I'll try both with and without bleed bonus damage and see from there. It might be cooler to reserve such a bleed interaction for some other hero.
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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Oxygen » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:06 am

Mmwell, yes, but the idea was exactly to give him more interaction =p

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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Rising_Dusk » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:52 am

Yes, but it'd be nice for it to at least make sense.
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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Oxygen » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:54 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:Yes, but it'd be nice for it to at least make sense.
Well, I had in mind that heatwaves made people feel weaker, and thus, more susceptible to malady (bleed, in this case, since there's no disease/poison condition)

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Re: Some thoughts about some stuff

Post by Rising_Dusk » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:01 am

I mean, if you make a very distant argument like that, you could justify any condition on any hero. I prefer to avoid that, though. Anyways, it's really not that big of a deal.
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