AotZ < DoE (apparently)

This is where all random discussion about AotZ goes. If it doesn't feel like it fits anywhere else but is still related to the map, this is the place to post it.
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AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Final_Pantheon » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:11 am

I'm sitting here wondering why people don't seem to like AotZ anymore. I frequently try to host it (admittedly, not as much as DoE, but still ... ) to no avail. It seems that nobody, even the new players, want to play Advent of the Zenith anymore.

I, personally, love AotZ. I'm just wondering why no-one else seems to want to play it when I can host DoE instead.

It's understandable, I suppose, that 3 games in a row with the invincible-ball-of-smoke bug (Yes, THREE GAMES) can put a bit of a dent in anyones enthusiasm towards the game. But it doesn't explain why people leave in a game where NO glitches occur - which happen rarely, and on these occassions where people decide to leave whne we have a perfectly good game, I decide to implement a few ... choice words.

I just thought I'd throw this topic out here to see if anyone else was in the same mind-set as me. Anyone have any suggestions as to WHY people don't join?

Perhaps the game name? :evil:

Panth

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Cromunism » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:11 pm

The reason why DoE is hosted more is probably since it has been updated more recently. While I really liked AotZ, I play DoE much more because there are fewer bugs and it has better balance. I'm sure AotZ will be hosted more when 3.0 comes out, but I have no idea how long that will be.

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Merlin » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:23 pm

For me it's a combination of bugs and game length.

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by shalnath » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:46 pm

I imagine it's because the heroes and spells are much more complicated and the learning curve is much steeper than DoE. If you've never played before, it can be extremely overwhelming.
"Within every world, there are cultures, within every culture, there are groups, within every group, there are leaders. These leaders are not truly chosen, they are destined, it is their fate to lead, and it is this fate that drives them. Souls yearn to be driven, they in themselves can not direct, however, these leaders are predetermined, by whatever means, to guide the wills and mend the errors of these wandering souls. A forest, cold, cured, flawless, meticulous, and fearful, what drives it, what keeps the balance? The inner beings of all the co-existant creatures swarm together, and every one is guided by another, in more a cycle, then a hierarchy. The eyes of a forest are always watching and guiding, yet the sun never sets on the forest, and it never shall." ~ The Chaos Theory

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Phox » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:06 pm

I never really play AotZ anymore. It's not because I don't enjoy it, but I loath getting stuck in those half-hour long struggles for the final area of the base, when one team has no hope of winning, but can still defend like hell. That's what makes me not want to play AotZ.

DoE, that doesn't happen. So despite being sometimes dropped (as I recall happening last time I was in a game of yours), it's an overall much more enjoyable experience for me. Plus it's quicker, so a) I can play more cames and b) it doesn't have time to become boring.

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Cooldood » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:20 pm

Personally most of the time I prefer aotz to doe... It gives me a much greater feeling of epicness
The bugs/glitches are what turn me off a bit though...
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Kaome Sky Deathand » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:02 pm

I miss playing AotZ...I miss summoning Thanatos....
I miss smacking KD in the face and rendering him from the godlike newbie companion he is to a mere nothing in one move.
I miss standing there and watching things die....

Maybe one day....
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Steve » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:42 pm

In AotZ it's probably all the bugs, that's what turns me away, it's actually an okay game.

'cept when Kisrug turns into an invulnerable shadow. The guy on my team used Ascension on their main base while it was still relatively intact. XD
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:45 pm

I ultimately agree with the topic's title. I feel that in every way, shape, and form, DoE is superior to AotZ. From a design standpoint, many things in AotZ make no sense. They were random, added nothing to the game, or in some cases (Power plants) fully detracted from the experience. The games are too long, there's no sense of conclusion, the balance is wretched (Kharn, KD, Janise...), the learning curve is wretched, the heroes are way too complicated, there's no cohesive elements between heroes like conditions in DoE, and so forth. I could rattle on about this for awhile!

But then, what then makes AotZ still enjoyed by anyone?
Let us analyze that question a little deeper. Three things about AotZ spring to mind when I try to describe why it will forever claim a tiny corner of my heart for itself.
  • Characters
    While DoE focuses on hero design, balance, coherence, and creating an epic experience, AotZ focuses more on hero individuality. In DoE, every hero is in some ways like every other hero inherently due to the condition system. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it does everything it was intended to, but on some level the heroes feel a part of the game -- Not the game a part of the heroes. That is part of the beauty of AotZ. (Or maps similar to it, ToB, AoM even, etc.) Buffs are individual to heroes, so each hero truly feels like he's doing stuff no other hero can do! This is slightly lost in DoE, where multiple heroes can mute, maim, blind, burn, bleed, ruin, etc.
  • Atmosphere
    There's something about desperation in a snowy world that is beautiful. DoE and AotZ both have their own atmospheres, DoE's is very focused, calculating, strategic. It makes you focus on the big picture, not just the smaller scale skirmishes of heroes against heroes or heroes against creeps/structures. AotZ on the other hand focuses entirely on the here and now, you are engulfed by the battle entirely and nothing else matters. Nothing diverts your attention. (This is in part why the power plants are counterproductive to the map design, stupid power shit things) This difference makes the game play as a different experience for players. Albeit DoE being a technical masterpiece compared to AotZ, AotZ still offers a different experience for players to wreathe themselves in. It is that experience that keeps it played in cult groups around the world. (There's an AotZ clan in northrend, for instance)
  • Nostalgia
    It was my first AoS map, and no matter how much better DoE is fundamentally, AotZ will always hold a special place in my heart. It was what started it all for me and many of you too, so no matter what new things come out that crush it in gameplay, you'll always find time to play a game of AotZ once in awhile. I learned more of that firsthand just the other day, too. There will always be a part of me that misses playing Greel or Ginther or Scamp or Hanz or Kisrug or Zhall or any other hero in the map. It is because of nostalgia that I refuse to let AotZ rot, and because of nostalgia that it will one day see a 3.00. Nothing short of death will stop me in making that happen.
So please, whenever I bash AotZ, know that I bash myself for not being a good mapmaker back then. AotZ has many brilliant hero ideas, it just needs brilliant map ideas to go along with that. I will make that happen in 3.00, trust you all in that. AotZ is a good map, it is not the best map, but it will forever be a good map. It was a stepping stone, and one day it will be treaded upon more meticulously by myself.
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Final_Pantheon » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:01 pm

All of the things you just listed, though, are what make it special when compared to DoE. The power plants, the hire hero system (Which does lead to very long games, although I'm not sure if you're counting that as a negative), the imbalanced hero system (definately a negative, for the opposition ...). The fact that the Mesmer can waltz in and annihilate a hero with low mana is something that makes AotZ unique when compared to DoE, and I don't see why that's a problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by no sense of conclusion. You kill the main building (just like in DoE) while the heroes defend (just like in DoE) and then the "Thank you" message pops up (just like in DoE). Unless I'm missing something.

Admittedly, the bugs, imbalanced heroes, long games, etc. detract from the beauty of the game (Or so I think). The ONLY thing that got me into DoE was me getting bored of playing 20 games a day of the same thing. And even though AotZ < DoE (Apparently) I still host them in even numbers in the hope that other people with come around to my way of thinking too.

P.S: Does this mean the power plants are going in the trash for v3.0?

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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:11 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by no sense of conclusion. You kill the main building (just like in DoE) while the heroes defend (just like in DoE) and then the "Thank you" message pops up (just like in DoE). Unless I'm missing something.
Yeah, you're missing the typical 1-2 hours it takes to get that far in the first place.
All of the things you just listed, though, are what make it special when compared to DoE. The power plants, the hire hero system (Which does lead to very long games, although I'm not sure if you're counting that as a negative), the imbalanced hero system (definately a negative, for the opposition ...). The fact that the Mesmer can waltz in and annihilate a hero with low mana is something that makes AotZ unique when compared to DoE, and I don't see why that's a problem.
I hope to God you don't like AotZ because of the power plants. If you do, then you'll hate absolutely everything I'm going to do to the map for 3.00. By the way though, imbalance as a means of balance is a method I employ for all of my maps -- DoE more so than AotZ. It works great and makes people really feel awesome about their hero even though it's totally balanced compared to every other hero. In DoE, though, I actually succeeded in balancing via imbalance... AotZ I did not.
P.S: Does this mean the power plants are going in the trash for v3.0?
Yes, it does.
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Final_Pantheon » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:20 pm

Rising_Dusk wrote:Yeah, you're missing the typical 1-2 hours it takes to get that far in the first place.
It IS true that AotZ games tend to be alot longer than DoE ones, but it isn't always a bad thing. I, personally, love rushing in with my whole team, half of us killing the heroes who're raining spells upon us, while the rest of us fight our way through the creeps spawning to get rid of the last 200 health on a tower (Which is being repaired).

I meant to ask, too: are the instant-spawn creeps going in v3.0? Is it turning into DoE sort of spawning where it comes with the next wave?
Rising_Dusk wrote:I hope to God you don't like AotZ because of the power plants.
I didn't say all those things saying that I loved them, I just said that they're what makes AotZ different from DoE. I never kill the power plant, and I stop my team from doing it, unless we have the bottom and the top base. It's more like DoE in that way (One of the things I like more in DoE).
I suppose, though, that keeping things in a map that people don't like purely because it makes it different from another map is just foolishness.

Ignore that.




The balanced-imbalanced heroes is a good point too.
I see what you mean.
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:26 pm

I meant to ask, too: are the instant-spawn creeps going in v3.0? Is it turning into DoE sort of spawning where it comes with the next wave?
It will be like DoE's method and like AotZ' method and all at once unlike anything you've ever seen. Dramatic, huh?
It IS true that AotZ games tend to be alot longer than DoE ones, but it isn't always a bad thing. I, personally, love rushing in with my whole team, half of us killing the heroes who're raining spells upon us, while the rest of us fight our way through the creeps spawning to get rid of the last 200 health on a tower (Which is being repaired).
You can do all of that in DoE too -- Just the games in DoE don't drag on for hours.
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Final_Pantheon » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:34 pm

Are you saying that it's the hire hero system that drags the games on then (I'm under the impression that it, in fact, does - It is exceedingly difficult to kill a level 21 Evendred Seeker / Hallowed ... err ... Knight?)? Because if it is, can you not simply remove it?
Rising_Dusk wrote:It will be like DoE's method and like AotZ' method and all at once unlike anything you've ever seen. Dramatic, huh?
Certainly does. Confusing too: Like something I've played and LOVE, and something like I've never seen before. Sounds intriguing.

I do like surprises.

P.S: Who's Thantos?
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Re: AotZ < DoE (apparently)

Post by Rising_Dusk » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:53 pm

Are you saying that it's the hire hero system that drags the games on then (I'm under the impression that it, in fact, does - It is exceedingly difficult to kill a level 21 Evendred Seeker / Hallowed ... err ... Knight?)? Because if it is, can you not simply remove it?
I can remove anything I want, but I can also redesign it to not cause problems.
P.S: Who's Thantos?
Something from the early pre-release versions of AotZ. Don't worry yourself with such things.
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