Re: And The Winner Is...
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:57 pm
You obviously haven't played Vesu as Rose.Soul_Reaver wrote:And instant death on the caster because of the -6 armor.
You obviously haven't played Vesu as Rose.Soul_Reaver wrote:And instant death on the caster because of the -6 armor.
How does Atrius work at all then? And please, don't call Sandstorm a damaging ability, 25 DPS in a shallow area doesn't really achieve anything.How can an agility hero be effective if only one of their abilities increases their damage output?
Maybe you misunderstand, then. The healing is a mechanism to make the ability useful (Though not optimal) at level one and even in cases where you might not be at liberty to refresh other cooldowns. Think about it for a minute before calling it garbage, as it most certainly is not.For all intents and purposes, I consider this hero to be garbage, because agility heroes rely on damage instead of life or mana as an escape mechanism
DotA also has zero chance of making heroes like Glasse or Victor work -- But oh look at that, they DO work in DoE. It's crazy, the things that apply to DotA do not inevitably apply to DoE!simply look at Dota (yes I know Dota )
I can't think of any with similar mechanics.The str hero is like every dwarf hero
Escape mechanism? You've played DoE, right?but the invisibility escape mechanism just seems overpowered in theory
Disables are not just for escapes, as a matter of fact they find niches in a wide variety of different builds and hero archetypes. Either you're not very good at expressing what you really mean or you really don't understand what you want to say, but quite frankly I would argue you've no idea what you're talking about.Disables are meant to be escape mechanisms for several heroes, and I don't see a reason to make those disables completely useless against one person. It is possible to balance the hero, if it wasn't for the many possible strategies for Canum I would vote for this hero.
I, too, never get any items from the Panda Shops, but that is for a reason. I also like to get constant regeneration or boots from the 200 tier basic items, instead of spending on Potions. Using your gold is very important in DoE, but not in the way of buying überimbalanced item recipes, and that is Mob Summoning. With 600 gold in my pocket, I can easily wreak havoc on an undefended lane, using 2 Javelin Throwers and 2 Priests, considering the fact that they are sent two times, and that contributes to the game way more than if I would buy an item that gives me 7 damage, 7% attack and movement speed, 7 strength and 7% chance to reduce movement speed for 2050 gold.Rectifier wrote:I prefer getting potions and health regen, then work for summoning mobs and uber items after killing several heroes.
25 dps is 25 dps no matter how you look at it, it helps his damage greatly if the other hero is dumb enough to stick around, healing does not add to dps; the healing skill isn't bad in itself, but I can't see myself dealing alot of damage without getting owned by a disable combined with a nuke or dying from an experienced player before going invis again.Rising_Dusk wrote:How does Atrius work at all then? And please, don't call Sandstorm a damaging ability, 25 DPS in a shallow area doesn't really achieve anything.
I'm not saying it's a bad skill in itself, I'm saying that he has no synergy for efficient damage dealing by pointing that skill out. All he can do is hit and run, heal and hope he doesn't run out of mana in the process and be forced to go back to base prematurely after using his initial mana pots; because I find that one of the easiest ways to win in DoE is to stay out and gain as much exp as possible without dying before going back to heal.Maybe you misunderstand, then. The healing is a mechanism to make the ability useful (Though not optimal) at level one and even in cases where you might not be at liberty to refresh other cooldowns. Think about it for a minute before calling it garbage, as it most certainly is not.
I was using Dota as an example, but the same basic principles that began years ago in the Starcraft map Aeon of Strife still apply here: such as being able to deal damage and being able to run away, Dota and DoE are no exceptions.DotA also has zero chance of making heroes like Glasse or Victor work -- But oh look at that, they DO work in DoE. It's crazy, the things that apply to DotA do not inevitably apply to DoE!
Every melee dwarf hero I've seen is all about having some sort of rage ability, some sort of high damage ability involving a high risk, and a passive damage ability. The str hero listed here is just a new wrapper on the same candy bar, no offense meant to your hero making skills, but I'm biased and don't like dwarf barbarians because 90% of dwarfs in D&D either going tank fighter or barbarian, the premise just doesn't seem original to me.I can't think of any with similar mechanics.
Enough to know that being able to dodge or escape from a bad situation is very important because some characters have escape mechanisms that require fairly precise timing. Having a str hero with a good escape mechanism is dangerous (for his enemies) and difficult to balance, that's the only reason I'm bringing it up.Escape mechanism? You've played DoE, right?
There are two types of disables in warcraft 3, disables either prevent damage or cause more damage. Escape mechanism is just a term used to describe the disables or self-buffs that can be used to prevent any or most damage from hitting your hero. The other disables are simply called disables, and are meant to force the enemy into taking more damage where they would otherwise escape with little or no damage.Disables are not just for escapes, as a matter of fact they find niches in a wide variety of different builds and hero archetypes. Either you're not very good at expressing what you really mean or you really don't understand what you want to say, but quite frankly I would argue you've no idea what you're talking about.
I would enjoy playing all the heroes, but I can only choose one, and therefore, based upon my initial judgements, compared to the int hero I have decided that the other two are harder to balance and will be less interesting once implemented. I use the term "garbage" to garner interest from others to my "narrow-minded" views, because I find that saying things without compromise starts deep and interesting discussion.You need to stop thinking about DotA because DoE is not DotA. Maybe you should play DoE more if you want to comment on how best to improve it -- Your suggestions falter because the logic behind them applies to a map where damage output is virtually all that matters. I guarantee you that if I made any of these three heroes, if you can appreciate DoE's design at all you would love playing as any of them. How can you explain this? That hero you call garbage would quite possibly be the most incredible thing to play as ever. The atmosphere presented in DoE changes all of the "standards" you've claimed the map needs to follow into things you've not even touched upon in your opinions.
Sure, but you're saying that sandstorm's shallow AOE and terrible viability as a damaging skill with virtually no reliability somehow changes the entire dynamic of the hero. The thing is that it doesn't whatsoever. I could remove the damage on Sandstorm and it's major use would not be thwarted, Atrius would continue on as a huge power character.25 dps is 25 dps no matter how you look at it
I would scale his mana costs on his abilities so that he runs out of mana anyways, it has no bearing on his mana consumption whether or not he has a healing skill or not. Also, having a healing skill nullifies the need to bring healing potions, meaning you can bring more mana potions. If you want to include items in your arguments, you may as well consider that he's got more resource control as a result of having a self-heal -- That synergizes with everything in a hero fundamentally.I'm not saying it's a bad skill in itself, I'm saying that he has no synergy for efficient damage dealing by pointing that skill out. All he can do is hit and run, heal and hope he doesn't run out of mana in the process and be forced to go back to base prematurely after using his initial mana pots; because I find that one of the easiest ways to win in DoE is to stay out and gain as much exp as possible without dying before going back to heal.
Of course they do, but they do not apply alone. That's where you are mistaken.I was using Dota as an example, but the same basic principles that began years ago in the Starcraft map Aeon of Strife still apply here: such as being able to deal damage and being able to run away, Dota and DoE are no exceptions.
And every demon hunter hero is a hero chaser, every warden hero is a hero killer, every paladin hero heals. These hero models make the most sense for specific roles whether or not it's been done a million times in the past or not. You will not see an effectively designed crypt lord hero that focuses on healing and reviving allies, you will not see an effectively designed chaser hero with the pit lord model, you will not see an effectively designed melee fighter using the blood mage model. Does this somehow make it a sin to having a mountain king hero with a crazed and psychotic feel to him? If by whatever means you answer yes to that, please don't even respond to this -- Your opinion will be beyond reason.Every melee dwarf hero I've seen is all about having some sort of rage ability, some sort of high damage ability involving a high risk, and a passive damage ability. The str hero listed here is just a new wrapper on the same candy bar, no offense meant to your hero making skills, but I'm biased and don't like dwarf barbarians because 90% of dwarfs in D&D either going tank fighter or barbarian, the premise just doesn't seem original to me.
Of course it's important, but that's not a problem. Just because a hero is strength doesn't mean he has 2000 life, and just because he's a dwarf doesn't mean his base movement would be super high either. You can't judge these things, settle in knowing that I am capable of balancing DoE effectively, you don't have to worry about that. :pEnough to know that being able to dodge or escape from a bad situation is very important because some characters have escape mechanisms that require fairly precise timing. Having a str hero with a good escape mechanism is dangerous (for his enemies) and difficult to balance, that's the only reason I'm bringing it up.
I respect your desire to quantify every aspect of WC3 mechanisms, but it does little in the ways of helping me develop anything at all. I may not be familiar with your terminology, but I know well enough all of the ways something such as a disable can be used.There are two types of disables in warcraft 3, disables either prevent damage or cause more damage. Escape mechanism is just a term used to describe the disables or self-buffs that can be used to prevent any or most damage from hitting your hero. The other disables are simply called disables, and are meant to force the enemy into taking more damage where they would otherwise escape with little or no damage.
It also incenses people's tempers and gives a very negative impression of yourself. There are plenty of other, more socially acceptable ways to build interest in a topic. One would just be to post something long and well-spoken about something you feel strongly on. We respond positively to such things, but definitely not to calling something garbage.I would enjoy playing all the heroes, but I can only choose one, and therefore, based upon my initial judgements, compared to the int hero I have decided that the other two are harder to balance and will be less interesting once implemented. I use the term "garbage" to garner interest from others to my "narrow-minded" views, because I find that saying things without compromise starts deep and interesting discussion.
I wrote:Sure, but you're saying that sandstorm's shallow AOE and terrible viability as a damaging skill with virtually no reliability somehow changes the entire dynamic of the hero. The thing is that it doesn't whatsoever. I could remove the damage on Sandstorm and it's major use would not be thwarted, Atrius would continue on as a huge power character.
Who made the decision regarding what an agility hero is? Blizzard? Dota? You? The mapping fairy that visits people in their sleep to deliver mapping instructions scribed on stone tablets and leaves them in their stockings?For all intents and purposes, I consider this hero to be garbage, because agility heroes rely on damage instead of life or mana as an escape mechanism, to increases their chances of survival, and to finish people off.
Ok, lets ask dusk to shoehorn 5 dps on the hero somewhere so you will be happy, because it appears you aren't even concerned with if the DPS effects how a hero plays, but rather the aesthetics. DPS does not define atrius, nor should it define storms hero, and if the mapping fairy has a problem with that, then he can make his own map.25 dps is 25 dps no matter how you look at it, it helps his damage greatly if the other hero is dumb enough to stick around, healing does not add to dps;
So you are saying the mapping fairy would do poorly playing as the hero because he doesn't know how to play heroes that don't completely follow his rules? I agree.the healing skill isn't bad in itself, but I can't see myself dealing alot of damage without getting owned by a disable combined with a nuke or dying from an experienced player before going invis again.
More unsupported "mapping fairy" claims. A str hero can have anything and be practical to balance that a hero of any other attribute could have.Having a str hero with a good escape mechanism is dangerous (for his enemies) and difficult to balance, that's the only reason I'm bringing it up.
Since when did a hero's model effect the mechanics of a hero's spells? As long as the hero has an appealing aesthetic scheme, isn't that what really matters?you will not see an effectively designed crypt lord hero that focuses on healing and reviving allies
Ever seen the EotA crypt lord?crypt lord hero that focuses on healing
I think I know what dusk is saying. Some unit animation and size just look better for some role then others (imagine Archmage as a melee tank). Each unit's appearance appeals to a certain stereotypical motive. A map maker plays on those stereotypes and makes (a hopefully unique) hero.vesuvan wrote: Since when did a hero's model effect the mechanics of a hero's spells? As long as the hero has an appealing aesthetic scheme, isn't that what really matters?
The spells and attack types you are permitted to use within bounds of reason rest on the animations therein found on the models. I mean really, what if you watched the movie Harry Potter, but instead of Harry being a wizard he was a pro wrestler, but looked exactly like he does now. Would you claim "Oh, the director is free to do whatever he pleases because it's his movie, even if the visuals make no sense with the design"? No, you'd whine and complain about a 60 pound preteen wrestling down griffons and ogres.Since when did a hero's model effect the mechanics of a hero's spells? As long as the hero has an appealing aesthetic scheme, isn't that what really matters?